1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,390 Making Toronto Transit Commission announce all bus and 2 00:00:03,390 --> 00:00:08,430 subway stops for blind riders, Lepofsky versus TTC. 3 00:00:08,430 --> 00:00:14,630 David Lepofsky, chair, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance. 4 00:00:14,630 --> 00:00:17,020 Delivered at the Osgoode Hall Law School, January 5 00:00:17,020 --> 00:00:21,280 24th, 2014, as a Roy McMurtry Clinical Fellow. 6 00:00:23,050 --> 00:00:23,790 >> Good morning everyone. 7 00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:27,370 It's, it's I'm delighted to be here. 8 00:00:27,370 --> 00:00:30,440 To talk to your seminar about test case 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:36,150 litigation in advocating for accessibility for people with disabilities. 10 00:00:36,150 --> 00:00:38,900 I'm gonna give you an unusual example because, even though I happen to 11 00:00:38,900 --> 00:00:42,380 be a lawyer, I don't do test cases on disability rights as a lawyer. 12 00:00:42,380 --> 00:00:47,200 My, my activism has always been as a member of the community, as a volunteer. 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,600 And in the example I'm going to give you, I 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,740 wasn't the lawyer, I was the, I was the client. 15 00:00:53,740 --> 00:00:57,840 I had pro bono counsel in two cases, who were fabulous. 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,320 Pro bono are unpaid volunteer legal work, something all 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,040 lawyers should do, and I had access to the best. 18 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,920 In my first case it was, Elizabeth Shelton and then 19 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,170 later after she retired Mary Cornish the Kavalosa Law Firm. 20 00:01:12,170 --> 00:01:18,080 And my second case it was Clifford Lacks from the Lacks and Sullivan Law Firm. 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,640 They each deduce my evidence and the firms donated a junior council 22 00:01:23,030 --> 00:01:27,075 to be, assist me as I conducted the rest of the case myself. 23 00:01:27,075 --> 00:01:30,450 Cross-examining argument and so on. 24 00:01:30,450 --> 00:01:34,580 I did myself but with the able assistance of junior lawyers from 25 00:01:34,580 --> 00:01:38,670 their respective firms, and I'm very indebted to them for doing that. 26 00:01:38,670 --> 00:01:48,540 In war, a country in an armed conflict has several different, ways to fight the war. 27 00:01:48,540 --> 00:01:50,060 They have navy. 28 00:01:50,060 --> 00:01:51,040 They have air force. 29 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,790 If they're equipped with all this, they have ground army. 30 00:01:53,790 --> 00:01:55,980 They may have special forces. 31 00:01:55,980 --> 00:02:00,750 Espionage and now, cyber espionage or cyber warfare. 32 00:02:01,860 --> 00:02:03,990 and, when a country is fighting a war 33 00:02:03,990 --> 00:02:07,830 with another country, they choose which of those will 34 00:02:07,830 --> 00:02:11,390 do the best to assist them or in combination 35 00:02:11,390 --> 00:02:14,940 with others of them to achieve their, their goals. 36 00:02:16,730 --> 00:02:20,490 I'm not a war person but when it comes to trying 37 00:02:20,490 --> 00:02:26,410 to use trying to achieve a community goal or a social goal. 38 00:02:27,516 --> 00:02:34,150 Through advocacy efforts, we have several weapons or tools at are disposal. 39 00:02:35,260 --> 00:02:38,700 That can include organizing a coalition to advocate, whether 40 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:42,170 it's for a law reform or for a new policies. 41 00:02:43,350 --> 00:02:49,600 And it can involve test case litigation, by an organization, 42 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,610 or just an individual bringing their own case on their own. 43 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:55,820 And all sorts of other things as well. 44 00:02:55,820 --> 00:03:03,800 And, I've, I've involved myself since shortly the end of my, my law school days. 45 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,720 In advocating for people with disabilities. 46 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,540 In a volunteer role. 47 00:03:08,540 --> 00:03:13,630 And I've been involved in various of these different kinds of efforts. 48 00:03:13,630 --> 00:03:15,440 When do you use which? 49 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,440 That's going to under lie what I'm talking about. 50 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:23,800 But to get you there I want to, I want to tell you the story of my case. 51 00:03:26,950 --> 00:03:30,800 I, as a young person, I'd been, I had partial vision as a 52 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,780 kid and lost, my remaining vision, dur, actually, when I was in law school. 53 00:03:35,780 --> 00:03:37,890 It was dropping gradually. 54 00:03:37,890 --> 00:03:40,760 And as a little kid, I was able to see out the window 55 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,160 of the bus, and that would help me find where to get off. 56 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,280 But as my vision decreased, I, I wouldn't be able to 57 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,190 tell which bus or subway station I was at without assistance. 58 00:03:49,190 --> 00:03:55,030 On the subway I had to be trained to count the stations and hope I didn't lose count. 59 00:03:55,030 --> 00:03:57,200 And hope somebody didn't talk to me while I 60 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,680 was on the subway, leading me to lose count. 61 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,460 And to hope that the train didn't stop for long stretches of 62 00:04:03,460 --> 00:04:07,910 time due to a breakdown, which might make me also lose count. 63 00:04:07,910 --> 00:04:10,100 On the bus it's even trickier because the 64 00:04:10,100 --> 00:04:13,340 subway stops at all stops, but a bus doesn't. 65 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:16,245 It'll pass stop at minor locations or at 66 00:04:16,245 --> 00:04:20,830 non-major intersections if nobody pulls the the string 67 00:04:20,830 --> 00:04:25,480 to chime to, to ask the driver to let them off, so you can't count them. 68 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:26,040 To be sure. 69 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,750 Sited people are accommodated in both way, in,in both subways 70 00:04:30,750 --> 00:04:35,050 and on buses by having windows they can look out. 71 00:04:35,050 --> 00:04:38,510 To enable them to see where they are and know when to get off. 72 00:04:40,350 --> 00:04:42,010 Not so much for blind people. 73 00:04:43,090 --> 00:04:48,400 In the 70's around the time I was in law school the Toronto Transit Commission 74 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:54,250 tried an experiment for a while of audibly announcing all subway stops. 75 00:04:54,250 --> 00:04:56,970 I've also gotten word, and I've a vague memory but nothing 76 00:04:56,970 --> 00:05:01,070 specific, that they used to audibly announce all bus stop as well. 77 00:05:01,070 --> 00:05:04,889 The subway announcements were tried for a few weeks and were called off. 78 00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:07,900 The speaker system wasn't great. 79 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:09,630 The volume varied a lot. 80 00:05:09,630 --> 00:05:12,080 They got, apparently, complaints from the public. 81 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,050 I remember seeing one in the paper and, 82 00:05:16,190 --> 00:05:19,620 contemplating writing a letter to the editor to respond. 83 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:23,720 Not knowing what this would later, how big a part of my life this would all become. 84 00:05:25,220 --> 00:05:32,050 It wasn't until 1994, many years later, that I decided to get active on this. 85 00:05:32,050 --> 00:05:37,340 It had crossed my mind, I'd been in the States, in New York or San Francisco 86 00:05:37,340 --> 00:05:42,600 or, Washington or Boston where they, on the subways, they announce all, all stops. 87 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,610 And I remember thinking many a time why aren't we doing this in Toronto? 88 00:05:47,900 --> 00:05:49,830 I remember TCC tried it and they said they were 89 00:05:49,830 --> 00:05:51,540 calling it off they were going to study it further. 90 00:05:51,540 --> 00:05:53,790 How long do they need to study? 91 00:05:53,790 --> 00:05:55,120 I thought. 92 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:56,270 But I didn't do anything about it. 93 00:05:57,580 --> 00:06:01,800 Along came the summer of 1994 and that's when they all began. 94 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,160 Now, I'd like to su, you might like to 95 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,610 think that as a person very interested in disability advocacy. 96 00:06:09,610 --> 00:06:11,360 That I sat down and I looked at a range of 97 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,020 different issues that I might bring a test case over, and 98 00:06:14,020 --> 00:06:16,990 I carefully studied which would be better than which, and I 99 00:06:16,990 --> 00:06:20,790 analyzed them in terms of their possible social significance and so on. 100 00:06:20,790 --> 00:06:21,062 no. 101 00:06:21,062 --> 00:06:24,300 [LAUGH] It's not what I did. 102 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:27,480 I just wrote a letter one day in June of 1994 to ask 103 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:33,670 the TTC, I asked the Chief General Manager, could you announce all stops. 104 00:06:33,670 --> 00:06:36,280 I'm blind and we need those stops on the subway announced. 105 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:38,930 I didn't ask about buses, because where I lived 106 00:06:38,930 --> 00:06:42,460 at the time I was really only riding subways. 107 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:44,940 To get to work and, and other major destinations. 108 00:06:44,940 --> 00:06:47,450 I really didn't use buses very much at all. 109 00:06:47,450 --> 00:06:49,670 It wasn't that I didn't, I, I, I thought it unimportant 110 00:06:49,670 --> 00:06:52,690 for others it just wasn't central to my experience at the time. 111 00:06:53,910 --> 00:06:58,900 I got a letter back explaining that it's not 112 00:06:58,900 --> 00:07:02,559 really feasible for their subway crews to make these announcements. 113 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,310 But, that they were planning in a couple of 114 00:07:05,310 --> 00:07:08,570 years to in, they, they were at the stages 115 00:07:08,570 --> 00:07:10,900 pardon me, they were in the process of planning 116 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:14,310 to institute an automated system for subway stop announcements. 117 00:07:15,610 --> 00:07:20,820 I responded, in writing, in affect, that with the position I would carry forward, 118 00:07:20,820 --> 00:07:25,980 which is I, I'm not asking anybody to spend money on all this automation. 119 00:07:25,980 --> 00:07:28,100 And even if you're going to, could you 120 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:30,690 have your crews announce the stops in the meantime? 121 00:07:32,710 --> 00:07:34,310 I couldn't get a, I couldn't get a yes. 122 00:07:34,310 --> 00:07:39,230 So in September of two, 1994, almost 20 years ago 123 00:07:39,230 --> 00:07:42,110 rolled around, I did two things on the same day. 124 00:07:43,230 --> 00:07:46,730 I went over to the human right's commission which then had a public 125 00:07:46,730 --> 00:07:48,460 mandate to investigate and enforce human 126 00:07:48,460 --> 00:07:50,950 right's complaints that regime has changed since. 127 00:07:50,950 --> 00:07:55,700 And I filed a complaint of discrimination against the Toronto transit division. 128 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:59,760 Discrimination in the provision of services because of my disability. 129 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,550 The second thing is, I got on the radio. 130 00:08:02,550 --> 00:08:05,510 I'd set up an interview that morning, this is the first time 131 00:08:05,510 --> 00:08:11,390 I broke the story, on Toronto, on CBC Toronto's flagship metro morning program. 132 00:08:11,390 --> 00:08:14,320 If you follow me on twitter @DavidLepofsky, 133 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,310 or my coalition, @AODAAlliance, we periodically tweet 134 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:23,390 a link to that radio interview, because it was the start of a long saga. 135 00:08:23,390 --> 00:08:25,920 The CBC had me on explaining what I need and at 136 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,830 the same time they had a gentleman from the TTC saying we 137 00:08:29,830 --> 00:08:32,830 can't really do this but we are putting in this big 138 00:08:32,830 --> 00:08:37,290 new system of automation that'll take a couple of years to institute. 139 00:08:37,290 --> 00:08:41,910 Many who heard that interview were quickly on my side of this debate. 140 00:08:43,230 --> 00:08:46,420 That included people at TTC because it wasn't maybe 141 00:08:46,420 --> 00:08:49,160 two hours later that I got a phone call at 142 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,220 my office from someone at TTC saying, could you 143 00:08:52,220 --> 00:08:54,930 come in for a meeting, we'd like to discuss this. 144 00:08:55,980 --> 00:09:00,890 Media coverage is often a very important tool in triggering change in this area. 145 00:09:02,210 --> 00:09:04,380 I had a, a friend go with me to the meeting. 146 00:09:04,380 --> 00:09:06,680 I was ready for a huge fight, I was ready to 147 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:09,590 make all these arguments about why I'm right and why they're wrong. 148 00:09:09,590 --> 00:09:11,930 But I never had to make the arguments because 149 00:09:11,930 --> 00:09:14,160 when I went to that meeting a week later, the 150 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,405 gentleman who was on the radio on the other side, 151 00:09:16,405 --> 00:09:18,890 named Jerry Broley, senior person at TTC at the time. 152 00:09:18,890 --> 00:09:21,890 Said, I'm, I'm opening my mouth to start making all the 153 00:09:21,890 --> 00:09:26,690 arguments that we as law students or lawyers are trained to make. 154 00:09:26,690 --> 00:09:28,590 And he said, we're going to do it. 155 00:09:30,780 --> 00:09:33,220 All of a sudden, I won. 156 00:09:33,220 --> 00:09:35,560 They wanted a couple months to get people ready for it. 157 00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:38,870 And they wanted to be able to do it right, so could we, would 158 00:09:38,870 --> 00:09:44,500 I be agreeable to them not proceeding until the start of the next year. 159 00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:47,500 I said sure and in December of that year when 160 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:50,200 they announced, in December 1994 when they announced that these 161 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,590 were gonna start they actually, CBC radio had me and 162 00:09:53,590 --> 00:09:56,560 Jerry Brulian again, but not against each other, but together. 163 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:58,350 Me thanking them and congratulating them and 164 00:09:58,350 --> 00:10:01,640 them expressing appreciation for my raising the issue. 165 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,450 Well in 1995 the announcement started on the subway. 166 00:10:05,450 --> 00:10:07,050 But it didn't go so well. 167 00:10:07,050 --> 00:10:10,740 Depending on the train you got on, we found that they announced 168 00:10:10,740 --> 00:10:14,530 all the stops, or some of the stops, or none of the stops. 169 00:10:14,530 --> 00:10:18,360 Well, unless it's consistently done, isn't very useful for a blind person. 170 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,150 You gotta keep counting the stops. 171 00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:21,820 Taking off your, your gloves and your 172 00:10:21,820 --> 00:10:24,300 shoes and counting on your fingers and toes. 173 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:26,170 And hoping you don't lose count. 174 00:10:27,730 --> 00:10:34,480 I started writing letters over the next five or so years. 175 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:35,750 As five or six years I think I 176 00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:39,980 wrote around 30 different times to raise concerns. 177 00:10:41,290 --> 00:10:46,180 They wrote me back at one point that year, in 1995, saying, could you please 178 00:10:46,180 --> 00:10:50,520 get us the number of the train where you're having the problem when it happens? 179 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,285 Now, for one thing, I can't see. 180 00:10:53,285 --> 00:10:56,430 [LAUGH] And for another thing, I thought the number's on the outside. 181 00:10:56,430 --> 00:10:57,970 So am I supposed to get out and run alongside. 182 00:10:57,970 --> 00:10:59,070 Well, it turns out he never. 183 00:10:59,070 --> 00:11:01,270 You don't know this, probably, but in every train 184 00:11:01,270 --> 00:11:04,730 there's a red number, four digits, starts with a five. 185 00:11:05,870 --> 00:11:08,020 And so what happened is I'd be on the train, and I'd, 186 00:11:08,020 --> 00:11:10,900 I, they weren't announcing stops, so I'd turn to some complete stranger and 187 00:11:10,900 --> 00:11:14,250 say, excuse me, there's a number up there in red with, it starts 188 00:11:14,250 --> 00:11:16,510 with a five, it's four digits, would you tell me which it is? 189 00:11:16,510 --> 00:11:18,310 I'm sure people thought I was crazy. 190 00:11:19,420 --> 00:11:20,930 And I'd write letters, and then they'd write 191 00:11:20,930 --> 00:11:23,160 back saying we're investigating it and so on. 192 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,910 And they gave me every excuse you can imagine, 193 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:26,970 including we're gonna put in a new radio system. 194 00:11:26,970 --> 00:11:30,670 Well, they then put in a new radio system and it didn't make anything any better. 195 00:11:30,670 --> 00:11:31,850 Back and forth and back and forth. 196 00:11:31,850 --> 00:11:35,790 Finally, 2001 rolls around and I said, enough. 197 00:11:37,250 --> 00:11:39,140 And I filed a human rights complaint. 198 00:11:39,140 --> 00:11:41,410 Now, I just, I filed a second human rights complaint. 199 00:11:41,410 --> 00:11:44,300 The first one I didn't proceed with, because my complaint was, 200 00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:46,609 they said they wouldn't announce stops, and they said they'd start. 201 00:11:48,230 --> 00:11:49,170 That has significance. 202 00:11:49,170 --> 00:11:51,210 It's gonna come up in a moment. 203 00:11:51,210 --> 00:11:54,300 But I filed this complaint, and, and, and I genuinely 204 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:57,440 thought, this is gotta settle, cuz they got no defense. 205 00:11:59,830 --> 00:12:02,240 well, 2001 rolls into 2002. 206 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,230 We end up going into a mediation process. 207 00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:06,015 I can't tell you about the content of 208 00:12:06,015 --> 00:12:08,450 that, cause there's obviously an undertaking of confidentiality, but 209 00:12:08,450 --> 00:12:13,940 I can say, the one public fact is that it failed, and I went on to a hearing. 210 00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:19,000 While this process was unfolding, TTC decided the, the automated system that 211 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,759 they promised in '94, would be instituted in '96, was called off. 212 00:12:24,330 --> 00:12:28,880 Now, in in the early 2000's, they just, with my litigation 213 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,710 pending, they decided to go back and go for an automated system. 214 00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:35,410 So the issue in my case boiled down to this. 215 00:12:35,410 --> 00:12:39,550 If they're gonna have an automated system up running in a couple years, are 216 00:12:39,550 --> 00:12:41,360 they obliged to have their, their subway 217 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,610 crews audibly announce all stops in the meantime? 218 00:12:45,060 --> 00:12:47,740 We couldn't resolve that, and so, it went to a hearing. 219 00:12:47,740 --> 00:12:50,860 The hearing took place before the human rights tribunal. 220 00:12:50,860 --> 00:12:51,880 Under the old regime, there was a 221 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,180 lawyer from the Human Rights Commission presenting. 222 00:12:54,180 --> 00:12:56,490 I had pro bono counsel as I said, calling my evidence, 223 00:12:56,490 --> 00:12:58,180 and the rest of the hearing I did myself, with the 224 00:12:58,180 --> 00:13:01,190 benefit of a, a junior from the law firm, a junior 225 00:13:01,190 --> 00:13:04,349 counsel from the law firm that was providing the pro bono service. 226 00:13:05,780 --> 00:13:07,250 So you're gonna ask me, what was the issue? 227 00:13:07,250 --> 00:13:11,380 Well, it began with them bringing a whole bunch of procedural motions to tie up 228 00:13:11,380 --> 00:13:13,540 a couple of days, claiming they weren't given 229 00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:15,400 enough notice of what I was asking for. 230 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,540 I was asking for audible stops announcements, 231 00:13:17,540 --> 00:13:20,010 it's not too hard to figure out. 232 00:13:20,010 --> 00:13:24,400 Claiming that the, I should only be able to sue the 233 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:29,030 TTC, not the chief general manager, a man named Rick Ducharme. 234 00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:31,660 We said he's on the hook cuz he was part of the decision making. 235 00:13:31,660 --> 00:13:33,320 He was writing some of the key letters. 236 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,470 Well, the Tribunal cut him out of the claim. 237 00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:38,780 Which to this day I think was unfortunate. 238 00:13:38,780 --> 00:13:41,980 Cuz individual accountability would've helped make some, for, for more change. 239 00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:47,330 At the hearing, I testified that I need to know what stop 240 00:13:47,330 --> 00:13:50,430 I'm at and they're not tell they, the stop announcements aren't reliable. 241 00:13:50,430 --> 00:13:51,520 And they didn't dispute that. 242 00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:56,370 I called an expert, er lati, the Human Rights Commission called an expert. 243 00:13:56,370 --> 00:13:58,610 It was Leslie McDonald, who teaches white 244 00:13:58,610 --> 00:14:01,560 cane and mobility training to, to blind people. 245 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:03,500 TTC at one point objected to her as an 246 00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:05,740 expert because she also was a friend of mine. 247 00:14:05,740 --> 00:14:09,040 The T, the Tribunal rejected that argument because the Human 248 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,875 Rights Commission showed that she'd also done consulting for TTC. 249 00:14:11,875 --> 00:14:16,120 [LAUGH] So, they were hardly in a position to talk about either that 250 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,320 her advice wasn't worth taking or that she had a unilateral connection with me. 251 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,560 We were quite open in the fact that we that, that we were friends. 252 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,290 But she all she was saying is blind people, it 253 00:14:27,290 --> 00:14:29,990 sums it, blind people need to know what stop they're at. 254 00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:33,290 Which, one would imagine, you don't even need an expert to show this. 255 00:14:33,290 --> 00:14:34,570 Just help make our case. 256 00:14:34,570 --> 00:14:35,610 So, what was their defense? 257 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,350 Under the human rights code, they, they have 258 00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:41,200 a legal defense saying we can't accommodate with, it 259 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,300 would be un, it would be undue hardship to 260 00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:46,710 TTC, to accommodate by making all route stop announces. 261 00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:48,710 But they didn't argue that, and they couldn't argue that. 262 00:14:50,010 --> 00:14:51,650 Because it was their own policy that they 263 00:14:51,650 --> 00:14:54,280 had directed their operators to announce all stops. 264 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:58,440 Their own documentation shows that they weren't consistently 265 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,100 doing it, that their rate of doing it when 266 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:07,540 they were audited, only went as high as 88% and went as low as 57% of the time. 267 00:15:07,540 --> 00:15:08,410 And that's when audited. 268 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,380 And, between the lines what they're real argument sounded like 269 00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:18,300 is we can't really get our drivers to do any more. 270 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:20,400 But they didn't induce any evidence of that. 271 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,420 They didn't induce any pushback for the union. 272 00:15:22,420 --> 00:15:24,070 Most people think the union was against it. 273 00:15:24,070 --> 00:15:25,780 We had no, they weren't, the union wasn't a party. 274 00:15:25,780 --> 00:15:28,300 And there was, we asked for this documentation, many 275 00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:31,510 exchanges between them and the union, and there was none. 276 00:15:31,510 --> 00:15:33,540 There was no evidence that the union went and said, 277 00:15:33,540 --> 00:15:35,200 Don't make us do this, or got in the way. 278 00:15:37,940 --> 00:15:42,520 So we had this hearing, and when it was over, after the evidence was taken 279 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,890 in, the adjudicator retired Superior Court Justice Alvin 280 00:15:46,890 --> 00:15:49,930 Rosenberg, sadly he passed away last, last year. 281 00:15:49,930 --> 00:15:53,530 Justice Rosenberg reserved. 282 00:15:53,530 --> 00:15:56,840 Now usually the Human Rights Tribunal reserve for some time. 283 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,670 He reserved for 20 minutes he said can I just come back in 284 00:15:59,670 --> 00:16:02,280 a few minutes and we all looked at each other what's going on. 285 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,200 He came back in 20 minutes after we finished oral argument and 286 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,760 he came in and said that he was finding that the human that 287 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,310 the TTC had been violating and my human rights and the human rights 288 00:16:13,310 --> 00:16:17,570 of blind Torontonians for at least ten years That he would issue orders. 289 00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:19,280 But he wanted to make that finding promptly. 290 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:23,160 It was quite an amazing day, and it got a ton of media coverage 291 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,090 he issued ground breaking orders but not anywhere near as much as we ask for. 292 00:16:29,090 --> 00:16:34,710 He ordered that the TTC announce all route stops, train their 293 00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:39,560 crews on it, train senior management on human rights, But a significant 294 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,370 new order in this context, was he appointed the former chair 295 00:16:44,370 --> 00:16:47,170 of the human rights tribunal, Mathew Garfield, to be an official monitor. 296 00:16:47,170 --> 00:16:50,230 And an official monitor paid for by the TTC. 297 00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:51,720 Is a, in effect, a representative of the 298 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,220 human rights tribunal who will oversee the implementation remedies. 299 00:16:55,220 --> 00:17:00,040 This had only been ordered once, to our knowledge, in Canada. 300 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,280 It was ordered in a case called McKennan. 301 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:07,290 It was a race based case where there were show, a proof that they Ontario prison 302 00:17:07,290 --> 00:17:13,500 system had rampant racist, racist problems with, with prison guards. 303 00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:17,370 We didn't have that kind of rampant virulent case to show. 304 00:17:17,370 --> 00:17:19,980 But none the less the monitor was ordered. 305 00:17:19,980 --> 00:17:22,480 Let me move quickly to the second case. 306 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,710 Oh by the way, one of the orders they had to train their, their employees. 307 00:17:25,710 --> 00:17:27,940 TTC called me and asked if I would be in a video. 308 00:17:27,940 --> 00:17:31,710 I actually sat in an empty subway car with a couple of TTC crew 309 00:17:31,710 --> 00:17:33,460 and they interviewed me and others, other 310 00:17:33,460 --> 00:17:35,578 blind people about why we needed stop announcements. 311 00:17:35,578 --> 00:17:39,170 This was really quite cool and we were on the video. 312 00:17:39,170 --> 00:17:39,960 I have a copy of it. 313 00:17:41,010 --> 00:17:44,920 Now, around this time, we won in '05, just around that time. 314 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,630 I've been hearing from various blind people that you should push for bus 315 00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:53,510 stops announcements too and also, I was looking at moving to a location. 316 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,060 To live in a location where I was going to need bus access so. 317 00:17:58,060 --> 00:18:00,970 I was now in a position to be a, a plaintiff in this. 318 00:18:00,970 --> 00:18:05,150 I had made the request and I reiterated that after I won this case. 319 00:18:05,150 --> 00:18:08,410 I went to, I wrote to the head of the TTC, Richter Charmin, I said, look, 320 00:18:08,410 --> 00:18:11,000 you know, you gotta announce all sub, subway 321 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,378 stops, so surely you've gotta announce all bus stops. 322 00:18:14,378 --> 00:18:17,900 The TTC's appellate response was that their policy 323 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:22,150 is to announce major intersections on buses and streetcars. 324 00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:23,020 And to announce 325 00:18:25,380 --> 00:18:28,140 your stop at your request. 326 00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:31,350 My response, shared by, I will tell you, other blind people. 327 00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:34,140 Is that if you ask the driver to call your own stop, they can forget. 328 00:18:34,140 --> 00:18:37,410 Cuz they've got to hold in their head, who asked for what. 329 00:18:37,410 --> 00:18:40,450 My position was if you ask them to call all stops. 330 00:18:40,450 --> 00:18:42,650 It becomes proceduralized, it becomes routine. 331 00:18:42,650 --> 00:18:43,470 They will just do it. 332 00:18:43,470 --> 00:18:45,500 They don't have to remember your particular stop. 333 00:18:46,510 --> 00:18:50,820 Well, you might think that it, it follows pretty obviously that if you 334 00:18:50,820 --> 00:18:54,290 got to announce all subway stops you also got to announce all bus stops. 335 00:18:54,290 --> 00:18:58,280 I thought that, everybody I know thought that except the TTC. 336 00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:59,650 So I had to bring my second case. 337 00:18:59,650 --> 00:19:01,595 It is very weird having a case named after you, 338 00:19:01,595 --> 00:19:04,690 Lepofsky versus TTC, it is even odder to have two. 339 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,300 In the second case, we went back before the human rights tribunal. 340 00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:11,750 The TTC had the same lawyer. 341 00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:15,030 A very good lawyer and a very honorable person, fighting the best 342 00:19:15,030 --> 00:19:18,560 she could for her, for her client and we had the same adjudicator. 343 00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:21,270 Retired Justice Rosenberg. 344 00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:25,540 This case came on for hearing in in 2007. 345 00:19:25,540 --> 00:19:28,590 So what was their defense? 346 00:19:29,690 --> 00:19:33,010 They couldn't argue that we didn't need route stop announcements called. 347 00:19:33,010 --> 00:19:36,270 Cuz as I said at the start of my talk, we need them at least as much on 348 00:19:36,270 --> 00:19:38,640 the subway if not more cuz you can't count 349 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,740 bus stops reliably cause buses don't stop at all stops. 350 00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:49,150 Well their defense was that it would be a danger to the public for bus 351 00:19:49,150 --> 00:19:51,640 drivers or street car drivers to go beyond 352 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:57,490 calling in major intersections and and requested stops. 353 00:19:57,490 --> 00:20:01,880 And go all the way to calling all stops, that there would be, distract them, that, 354 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,720 essentially, there could be cru-, people could get 355 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,670 hurt, there could be accidents because of calling stops. 356 00:20:07,670 --> 00:20:10,020 This is my, I, I characterize this as the, bus 357 00:20:10,020 --> 00:20:14,110 drivers can't walk and chew gum at the same time, argument. 358 00:20:14,110 --> 00:20:17,460 Our response to it was this. 359 00:20:17,460 --> 00:20:20,400 Number one they didn't call a bus driver to testify they can't do it. 360 00:20:21,690 --> 00:20:24,130 Number two they're not even adhering to their own policy 361 00:20:24,130 --> 00:20:27,180 because their own audits in the last couple years showed 362 00:20:27,180 --> 00:20:30,140 that for the most part they were announcing the major 363 00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:36,190 intersections even less frequently then they were announcing subway stops. 364 00:20:36,190 --> 00:20:39,180 And their inadequate subway stop announcements were a violation of 365 00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:41,690 the human rights code, and were found to be such. 366 00:20:43,350 --> 00:20:47,230 Our next argument was that this danger thing 367 00:20:47,230 --> 00:20:50,770 is not their real reason for why they refused. 368 00:20:50,770 --> 00:20:53,810 I had been on CBC Metro Morning talking about this issue. 369 00:20:53,810 --> 00:21:00,590 And then the then chair of the TTC Howard Moscoe was also on, not at the same time. 370 00:21:00,590 --> 00:21:02,950 And he said the reason that they weren't gonna call, 371 00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:04,720 tell their drivers to call stops, is cuz they said 372 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,650 it would be, he said it would be a major 373 00:21:06,650 --> 00:21:08,060 administrative hassle to have to 374 00:21:08,060 --> 00:21:11,450 discipline their drivers for noncompliance. 375 00:21:11,450 --> 00:21:15,340 And he went on in the interview to say, on the radio, I know that's no excuse. 376 00:21:16,940 --> 00:21:19,450 I put that audio tape, put all of these interviews, 377 00:21:19,450 --> 00:21:22,490 eventually ended up in the records for these various cases. 378 00:21:22,490 --> 00:21:23,330 Well. 379 00:21:23,330 --> 00:21:25,860 So I said, that's not the danger thing, that isn't the real reason. 380 00:21:25,860 --> 00:21:31,660 Moreover, we adduced evidence in cross-examination from the TTC that they 381 00:21:31,660 --> 00:21:37,559 had actually commended their own drivers who call all stops. 382 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,460 So, do you give a commendation to people 383 00:21:40,460 --> 00:21:43,310 who, your own drivers if they're endangering people? 384 00:21:43,310 --> 00:21:44,430 Come on. 385 00:21:44,430 --> 00:21:48,570 Moreover, their own internal policy showed that they, they tell their drivers to 386 00:21:48,570 --> 00:21:53,760 call all stops if the bus is crowded or the weather is inclement outside. 387 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,170 And some of them even said, or if there's a visually impaired person on the bus. 388 00:21:57,170 --> 00:21:59,730 Well, buses crowded or inclement weather, that means we'll call 389 00:21:59,730 --> 00:22:03,100 all stops to accommodate sighted people who can't see outside. 390 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,350 You should be doing the same thing for blind people who can't see outside. 391 00:22:08,620 --> 00:22:12,960 Well, there's more to it but I'm synthesizing. 392 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,940 But the human rights tribunal rules quite promptly, not 393 00:22:16,940 --> 00:22:19,620 in 20 minutes but within a couple of weeks. 394 00:22:19,620 --> 00:22:23,930 That the TTC had again violated the human rights 395 00:22:23,930 --> 00:22:27,660 of blind people by not consistently calling out bus stops. 396 00:22:27,660 --> 00:22:30,720 By the way I should explain that even before 397 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,490 I brought this case to claim, but while the subway 398 00:22:33,490 --> 00:22:36,500 claim was pending, the TTC had announced that they were 399 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:40,390 going to bring in a system of automated bus announcements. 400 00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:42,740 In the buses, not just the subways. 401 00:22:42,740 --> 00:22:49,500 So the issue in, just as the issue in case number one was, do you have to make human 402 00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:55,290 being announcements while you're waiting for the automation to be installed? 403 00:22:55,290 --> 00:22:57,970 And the answer was yes. 404 00:22:57,970 --> 00:23:00,930 The issue in the second case is, does the TTC have to, have 405 00:23:00,930 --> 00:23:02,920 human being announcements while they're waiting 406 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,470 for the bus announcements to be installed? 407 00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:08,170 And the answer was, I know this is shocking, yes. 408 00:23:08,170 --> 00:23:13,930 So, and the, the tribunal ruled in my favor. 409 00:23:13,930 --> 00:23:16,900 The orders in the second case are, are really interesting. 410 00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:18,549 I'm gonna take a minute on that, and then I'm gonna wrap up. 411 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,500 Again there was an order to comply. 412 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,550 As in the first case, there was an order for the 413 00:23:25,550 --> 00:23:31,670 TTC to monitor its compliance and report monthly on on compliance. 414 00:23:31,670 --> 00:23:36,520 The same official monitor, Matthew Garfield was ordered to take 415 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,600 on the official monitor role on this case as well. 416 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:45,560 He's still, in effect, now, this many years later, monitoring implementation. 417 00:23:47,220 --> 00:23:53,330 but, and the TTC was ordered to have, an action plan or an implementation plan 418 00:23:53,330 --> 00:23:58,800 devised within 15 days of the order To be implemented within 30 days of the order. 419 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,910 So they were told to get into action very quickly. 420 00:24:01,910 --> 00:24:03,960 And to the TTC's credit, they did. 421 00:24:05,180 --> 00:24:06,870 After the first case, the order in the first 422 00:24:06,870 --> 00:24:11,160 case, they had constant substantially 423 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,630 improved audio announcements, within weeks. 424 00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:18,710 And same within weeks of the bus ruling. 425 00:24:20,140 --> 00:24:21,690 But the second case went further. 426 00:24:21,690 --> 00:24:25,240 You see, there were some remedies I asked for in the first case, which I didn't get. 427 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,160 TTC opposed. 428 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,030 But in the second case, I did get. 429 00:24:29,030 --> 00:24:30,950 I told the judg, justice Rose Brig, that we 430 00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:33,390 have a recidivist, we have a repeat offender here. 431 00:24:33,390 --> 00:24:35,110 And it's a government agency. 432 00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:36,390 It's part of the city of Toronto. 433 00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:40,970 And I argued that they've shown that they just 434 00:24:40,970 --> 00:24:45,130 aren't gonna get it unless you impose some more orders. 435 00:24:45,130 --> 00:24:48,270 The two critical orders I asked for were these that I got. 436 00:24:48,270 --> 00:24:49,240 There's one I didn't get. 437 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,020 But there's two critical one's that I did get. 438 00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:57,030 We showed, in evidence, in both cases that TTC has received a 439 00:24:57,030 --> 00:24:58,450 number of complaints over the years 440 00:24:58,450 --> 00:25:01,070 about their failure to provide these announcements. 441 00:25:01,070 --> 00:25:03,510 And we also showed that senior management didn't know 442 00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:06,200 those complaints had been coming through their complaints department. 443 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,040 And the commissioners, the board of governors of the TTC also didn't know. 444 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,620 So we argued that it, we need to change the top. 445 00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:16,140 They need to hear directly from 446 00:25:18,210 --> 00:25:20,350 passengers with disabilities, not just blind folks, 447 00:25:20,350 --> 00:25:23,000 but others about the problems they face. 448 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,690 So we asked that the TTC be ordered to hold 449 00:25:25,690 --> 00:25:28,420 an annual open, advertised, accessible 450 00:25:28,420 --> 00:25:31,900 public forum, on accessible transit issues. 451 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:36,310 And that all senior managers and all commissioners be required to attend. 452 00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:39,840 The tribunal ordered that for three successive years. 453 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,210 By the way, the TTC opposed the order initially. 454 00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:46,350 Within holding, after holding the first such event, which hundreds 455 00:25:46,350 --> 00:25:49,690 of people attended, The TTC under, thought, thought it was such 456 00:25:49,690 --> 00:25:51,700 a good idea that they agreed they'd keep doing it after 457 00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:53,950 the three years, and they're still doing it to this day. 458 00:25:53,950 --> 00:25:58,380 We also got it mandated for all tra, transit authorities, under 459 00:25:58,380 --> 00:26:00,360 the public tran, the Assessable Transportation 460 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:02,450 Regulation passed under the Disabilities Act. 461 00:26:02,450 --> 00:26:04,050 All inspired from our experience here. 462 00:26:05,060 --> 00:26:07,910 I said there were two really important word as, we'd never 463 00:26:07,910 --> 00:26:10,620 seen anything like this before they write the human rights codes. 464 00:26:10,620 --> 00:26:14,410 The other one was this, it became clear to us, that nobody in 465 00:26:14,410 --> 00:26:17,930 senior management was being held accountable if they mess up on this issue. 466 00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:24,030 They per, senior managers at TTC all undergo something which they 467 00:26:24,030 --> 00:26:26,410 do in a lot of organizations called a annual performance review. 468 00:26:27,470 --> 00:26:30,410 Where you've set your goals for the next year and you get 469 00:26:30,410 --> 00:26:33,230 reviewed on how you're doing for your goals for the last year. 470 00:26:33,230 --> 00:26:34,970 We proved in cross examination that they 471 00:26:34,970 --> 00:26:37,200 do this annual performance review, that there's 472 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,170 no requirement to look into anything about 473 00:26:39,170 --> 00:26:43,500 the managers performance on disability, accessibility and accommodation. 474 00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:45,980 And so it's not even the basis of a review. 475 00:26:45,980 --> 00:26:47,600 So, you could do really bad for years and 476 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,350 you'll never get reviewed or held to account on it. 477 00:26:50,350 --> 00:26:54,900 So we asked the tribunal to make an order requiring that this be incorporated and 478 00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:57,290 the tribunal did, they ordered that accessibility 479 00:26:57,290 --> 00:27:00,150 be built into job descriptions in various ways. 480 00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:01,850 And senior management and that it be part of their 481 00:27:01,850 --> 00:27:05,420 annual performance review and take into account in pay and promotion. 482 00:27:06,690 --> 00:27:08,890 I never heard of this being done anywhere. 483 00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:12,960 TTC to their credit, while they opposed the order when I sought it, once it 484 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,080 was ordered I was told that they actually 485 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,440 extended it from senior management to all employees. 486 00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:23,580 Which I think has the real potential for making a change. 487 00:27:23,580 --> 00:27:29,590 The order I didn't get Was I asked for the TTC to be ordered to create a disability 488 00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:32,830 accessibility on this person to deal with these complaints, 489 00:27:32,830 --> 00:27:37,150 because their internal complaint system didn't seem to work. 490 00:27:37,150 --> 00:27:38,890 I didn't get the order but the tribunal kept, 491 00:27:38,890 --> 00:27:44,740 retained, decided that it would remain seized of the matter. 492 00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:46,970 And I can come back later if that order is needed 493 00:27:46,970 --> 00:27:50,160 and that's still an opportunity open to me to this day. 494 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,410 Let me offer you some conclusions, number one this 495 00:27:52,410 --> 00:27:56,000 case has had huge impact well beyond anything I expected. 496 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,490 It led the Ontario government to require all stop announcements be made 497 00:28:01,490 --> 00:28:03,340 all public transit across the province 498 00:28:03,340 --> 00:28:05,490 under the Accessibility Frontier with Disabilities Act. 499 00:28:05,490 --> 00:28:08,150 I heard it's gotten picked up in other parts of Canada. 500 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,000 I get feedback on this case from people 501 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,560 all the time, mostly sighted people who find the 502 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,940 announcements are really helpful for sighted people who can't 503 00:28:15,940 --> 00:28:18,340 see through crowds or want to read a book. 504 00:28:18,340 --> 00:28:22,100 It's a in my experience, it became and I didn't foresee this in 505 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:26,950 events but it became a good illustration of how accommodating us helps everyone. 506 00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:29,560 That it isn't a matter of accessibility for us comes 507 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,050 at the price of what other people without disabilities might want. 508 00:28:33,050 --> 00:28:35,310 It shows that what's good for us is typically good 509 00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:38,190 for everyone and it helps builds the case for accessibility. 510 00:28:38,190 --> 00:28:39,850 It's a case that people remember. 511 00:28:39,850 --> 00:28:43,180 I, I've been involved in disability advocacy or the disability act for years. 512 00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:45,060 Most people out there don't know that but you'd be 513 00:28:45,060 --> 00:28:47,240 amazed how many people walk up to me and say. 514 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,280 Oh, you're the guy with the subways thing. 515 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,090 Or the buses thing. 516 00:28:50,090 --> 00:28:52,460 I think of you when I hear those announcements. 517 00:28:52,460 --> 00:28:55,760 It's because every time they hear the announcements it reminds them 518 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,510 of the news stories that would, that, that the TTC opposed us. 519 00:29:01,270 --> 00:29:02,775 And that, and then they think about 520 00:29:02,775 --> 00:29:04,400 how the, the announcements are helpful for them. 521 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,830 Why did the TTC oppose it in the first place? 522 00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:09,580 To the Human Rights Commission's credit, they 523 00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:13,720 did a survey of all, transit authorities, right, 524 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:19,450 shortly after I won urging them to all do the same, as is required by law. 525 00:29:19,450 --> 00:29:23,810 Illustrative of the kind of impediments we face, some said yes, but some said no, and 526 00:29:23,810 --> 00:29:25,790 some who said yes still didn't until the 527 00:29:25,790 --> 00:29:29,110 Human Rights Commission had to institute proceedings against them. 528 00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:31,180 One public transit authority won and was London was quoted 529 00:29:31,180 --> 00:29:34,270 in London Free Press as saying, they'll put in automated announcements, 530 00:29:34,270 --> 00:29:36,460 but they're not gonna direct their, their crews to do 531 00:29:36,460 --> 00:29:40,290 it manually, or, you know, by human being announcement in advance. 532 00:29:40,290 --> 00:29:42,220 This is, this is the law. 533 00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:44,760 But they decided it was arbitrary, I think was 534 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,680 the word that the guy, that the fellow used. 535 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,800 So I guess they decided that they don't have to obey the law. 536 00:29:50,770 --> 00:29:54,510 The other thing that this case illustrated was to explode a myth. 537 00:29:54,510 --> 00:29:59,320 A common myth that there accommodating us is always about money, it's all the costs. 538 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,330 Well it often isn't. 539 00:30:00,330 --> 00:30:01,950 And in this case they could have 540 00:30:01,950 --> 00:30:05,690 provided this accommodation without anything beyond training costs. 541 00:30:05,690 --> 00:30:07,520 I didn't ask for any automated, fancy, 542 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,580 high powered teconolog, technology as a solution. 543 00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:12,650 Every bus or subway has a driver. 544 00:30:12,650 --> 00:30:14,350 They all have a mouth. 545 00:30:14,350 --> 00:30:17,520 They all have a microphone, and I hope they know where they are. 546 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:18,270 So, just tell us! 547 00:30:19,770 --> 00:30:22,980 But in this case, the money issue cut the opposite way. 548 00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:25,650 After the case was over, I filed a human rights or, pardon 549 00:30:25,650 --> 00:30:29,780 me, a freedom of information request, to get the TTC's legal bills. 550 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,640 I want to see how much they paid their lawyers. 551 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,310 I got nothing against the lawyers, I'm not saying the lawyers was, 552 00:30:35,310 --> 00:30:39,980 was billing inappropriately but how much did they pay to oppose these claims. 553 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,430 Well the bills came in and we added them 554 00:30:43,430 --> 00:30:46,890 up, between the two lawsuits they spent $450,000 on 555 00:30:49,070 --> 00:30:51,480 lawyers to oppose these two claims. 556 00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:54,240 It could have bought a lot of accessibility. 557 00:30:55,970 --> 00:31:01,680 So, in the end, it was an incredible learning experience for me. 558 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,430 I would tell you that in deciding to bring a test case, you 559 00:31:04,430 --> 00:31:08,020 never know at the beginning where it's gonna end up at the end. 560 00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:10,370 You can't foresee that it's gonna have these ramifications. 561 00:31:10,370 --> 00:31:11,820 And I sure didn't. 562 00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:15,060 I just carried on with the case because I thought the request was reasonable. 563 00:31:15,060 --> 00:31:16,610 And, I couldn't believe they wouldn't settle. 564 00:31:16,610 --> 00:31:18,960 And then when they didn't settle, it was either quit, which 565 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,780 I wasn't prepared to do, or keep on going which I did. 566 00:31:22,780 --> 00:31:24,630 It was as simple as that. 567 00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:28,140 But this case has really helped with the broader campaign for accessibility. 568 00:31:28,140 --> 00:31:29,840 It helped highlight things. 569 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,750 But, what's amazing beyond every other experience I've had. 570 00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:35,820 Is how the world has changed because if 571 00:31:35,820 --> 00:31:38,260 you read, I've read one Toronto Star article. 572 00:31:38,260 --> 00:31:41,400 They refer to the announcements on the TTC as 573 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,440 iconic, and anybody that I've talked to at the TTC, 574 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,410 including people who were opposing me at the time 575 00:31:49,410 --> 00:31:51,579 have said to me they actually agree with my position. 576 00:31:53,230 --> 00:31:55,480 Now, I think they were being genuine. 577 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,500 What's actually, what, what it reveals is the capacity of an organization to do the 578 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:03,270 wrong thing, because they can without really 579 00:32:03,270 --> 00:32:06,210 thinking it through and without being held accountable. 580 00:32:06,210 --> 00:32:09,850 And, I'm hoping the remedies I sought will help, will help change that. 581 00:32:09,850 --> 00:32:11,520 Thank you very much for the chance to speak to 582 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,729 you, and I look forward to your, to your questions. 583 00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:17,410 He's a PS to my talk on the transit 584 00:32:17,410 --> 00:32:20,320 on, on the case against the Toronto Transit Commission. 585 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,740 I mentioned at one point that the, the exchange I had 586 00:32:23,740 --> 00:32:29,580 with TCC in 1994 came into play in the 2005 case. 587 00:32:29,580 --> 00:32:30,408 Here's how it happened. 588 00:32:30,408 --> 00:32:37,160 Back in' 94, I filed a complaint saying I that TCC was violating my human 589 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,190 rights ca, my human rights, because they were 590 00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:43,764 not requiring their operators to announce route stops. 591 00:32:43,764 --> 00:32:47,270 They announced that they were gonna direct their operators 592 00:32:47,270 --> 00:32:50,120 to announce route stops so I discontinued that complaint. 593 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,990 In 2005 the TCC tried to argue at the hearing 594 00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:56,940 that they should not have a finding of discrimination against them. 595 00:32:56,940 --> 00:33:00,400 That, because, in effect, in, in 1994, I had 596 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,370 agreed to withhold any future claims on the quality of 597 00:33:05,370 --> 00:33:09,410 the announcements, that simply by starting to make announcements in 598 00:33:09,410 --> 00:33:14,340 1995, they had absolved themselves of any obligation to me. 599 00:33:14,340 --> 00:33:17,430 To make sure those announcements were made consistently and reliably. 600 00:33:18,930 --> 00:33:23,220 I responded at the 2005 Subway's case by arguing 601 00:33:23,220 --> 00:33:25,890 that, that was no such, there was no such agreement. 602 00:33:25,890 --> 00:33:28,400 I didn't sign any settlement agreement to that effect. 603 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:34,200 I didn't waive my future human rights and needless to say [LAUGH] I wouldn't. 604 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,810 Under those circumstances ultimately the human rights tribunal agreed with me. 605 00:33:38,810 --> 00:33:41,330 Rejected that argument and found that the TTC 606 00:33:41,330 --> 00:33:45,920 had violated, the human rights, of me and other 607 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,950 blind by Torontonians for at least a decade 608 00:33:47,950 --> 00:33:52,390 by not consistently and reliably announcing all subway stops.