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I it's with I'll lot serve I am

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pleasure and only a little trepidation
that I welcome everyone back to

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New Year the new term and of course part
2

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have ethical lawyering and a global
community and we

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are very as much looking forward to

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this section of the course to getting at
back into

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and how the lively discussions we left
off in September

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hearing more about your own thoughts and

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journeys in at Law School over the other

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courses you took in the fall and of
course

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exploring some really important
interesting

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issues compelling and top-of-mind topics
given the headlines

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a in the fall and of course I'm getting
you

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I rolling up your own sleeve said I in
now the paper and

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in the at the case study project in
you'll hear more about

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all of that in addition to the various
air readings and

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themes for each day when we yes separate

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into our sections after this plenary
session

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but the plenary session I is an
absolutely

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perfect way to kickoff part 2

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I and I'll introduce a in cairo is here
too

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take us through a little bit over
different lands on

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professionalism ethics and legal
education and one that

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I is rooted in the question that we
haven't really explored

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I well enough it seems to me after week
one at this course and that's how did we

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get here

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where did we come from how did the
profession legal education

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take shape in at least this jurisdiction
but again no jurisdiction

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I is in a vacuum and so picking up on
trends and themes

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I in the US in the UK elsewhere in the
world

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I is an important comparative and
insider lands on that the topics were

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exploring

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I and olive it has a really important
and really intriguing history and some

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of the stories

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I that ought to be told about that
history you're gonna hear through the

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eyes of some the individuals who

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where either a product other times are
help shape their times I think it's fair

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to say

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I and I we hope that that discussion and
the sense over

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historically rooted vision

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have legal professionalism is something
that carries forward air during

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this says second part for the course so

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Ian is the a perfect interlocutor for

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for this project and many have you will
know him from

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at the I really am and

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enjoyable and landmark study he co
author to the fiercest debate

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which tells a story not just a vase good
but I have

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legal education and cherry only in the

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emergence at the University of Toronto's
law school in the other law schools in

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the province

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and told through the story

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have Cesar a right to is really one at
that most remarkable figures

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in the history of legal education and as
someone of course who played a

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huge role in this law school so at how
did at your income to

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be the interlocutor a legal I'm

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educations history he'll tell you a
little bit more about that

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but let me tell you a word or two about
him

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any brings not only and a law degree but

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a a doctorate and in

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he was it in history I hope it was in
history I it's a kinda thing you should

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check before launching into someone's

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background but it was Sam just as he
received his doctorate

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I think just before he was receiving an

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at his call that he was asked to join

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now what was then fast kine and Calvin
now Fasken Martineau or simply faz kins

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where he spent their the bulk up his
career

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following the trajectory

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in the growth of it. law and

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all the different pre-mutation state

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at the world the technology has created
for law

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any spend I was just double checking
this I know I've got it right

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33 years ADF askins before his

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retirement from the firm in 2013 and we
are

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commenting on how comin an experience
that would have been for those

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graduating in his

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year and how rare it's going to be for
any view

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to spend your entire career more lesser

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single firm he has gone on

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from that long career gaskins at two now

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a practice say in-house in again
information technology law

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at rpm technologies and I think it's
a.m.

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again testament that he's well known to
many of us

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for his work in legal history legal
education and so forth but

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he is also one of the country's

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a finest lawyers in the field he
specialized in has been

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recognized as a in a variety of the

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Alexis top lawyers like spurts

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a top list and so forth and at lectures
and

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practices in areas that really have have
begun with

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computers and now include online gaming
all sorts serve

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important in scary new worlds his two
main box in history that

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them when which I'd mention the fiercest
debate

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that's easily write the benchers in
legal education in Ontario you'll see

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and

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had the first introductory section in
your readings for today

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his other more recent book lawyers
families and businesses

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the shaping up to be a street law firm
baskin's from 1863

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in 1963 was published by the Osgoode
society

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in 2013 and again there's a series is
the

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articles and other publications to his
credit

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over the years have his busy practice so

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we're really delighted dad to welcome

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you hear EN we're gonna have a chance to

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hear the stories that you're gonna tell
and then they'll be

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a sometime afterwards for questions and
we hope this will lead into lively

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discussions in the sections to calm

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please join me and this and

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brisk morning in giving a warm welcome
to Ian kyr

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thank you dean

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when I I was in first year law

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I didn't want to be here I

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I had done a PhD in mediaeval
ecclesiastical history

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and I discovered as my father had warned
me years before

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that nobody would hire me with that
setup a background

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was my wife to convince me to go to law
school so I was sitting

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in class wishing I was actually teaching
in history department which I was doing

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part-time

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time I'm much to the chagrin of the Dean
who told me that this country to the

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rules

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anyway what at what

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really got me involved in law which by
the way I love

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and I have enjoy practicing law
immensely so my life

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really deserves a lot of credit for
getting me into a practice which I've

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truly enjoyed

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but to put really got me into this was a

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now mister Justice Robert sharp I
thought Obama's

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as professor Bob Sharp he was teaching a
class

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like this a in first-year where his job
was to

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give us some background on legal history
and

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I don't know if you know just sharpy's
fine gentleman

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and the has become quite a legal scholar
but at the time

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he's he said to the class I don't know
very much about legal history at all

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their public people in the audience that
no more but legal history

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than I do if any if you would like to
teach is par for the course just let you

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know

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I put up my hand

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and he denied and tot the legal history
section

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as during the three years and I was at
Law School it was fun I loved it

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it gave me an opportunity to blend by
history

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interests with my legal a studies

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and I got bitten by the bug and I have
been studying legal history ever since

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and there's a lot of great stories and i
wanna share something with you

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the theme up my presentation today is

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its my question how

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ought we to train lawyers and its

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interesting that the answer to that
question has differed dramatically

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over the years the

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the early years we're gonna start in
1856 in a moment but

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the early years I'll take it for granted
that the way

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to learn to be a lawyer was to work with

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a lawyer you were an apprentice so

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it was thought to be enough to basically
learn

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how to prepare the documents where to
file them

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how to fill out forms and so on by
working with someone

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doing that as well they refer to it as
an articled clerk

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we would say articling today City think
at the 5 W's

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who where what when and why

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the emphasis was all in the first four
who

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who %ah to prepare documents and who as
legal rights

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where r documents to be filed

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what are they to say when should they be
done all other

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how to do things the practical aspects

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a practice very little spent on why

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in fact I think it's probably safe to
say no time spit

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on why why do we have laws why did they
take the form they do

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what interests are the intended to to
protect

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what to behavior the intended to
discourage letter that

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was thought to be important to
practicing practicing was basically

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a trade and you learn it by working with
others who are specialists

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in that trade

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the these over time as we will see

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another view developed a few that we
have now also have taken for granted

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that the proper way to train people is
the

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like you go to university you doing
undergraduate degree

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you then go on and do you're a college
graduate work in

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in law so

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this came to be seen as the debate
between the law school

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and the office the office being where
you learn practical things

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and you'll hear people as we go through
and look at this talking about

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the office on the law school and carried
through

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its early ideas only naturally

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from England because it was an English
colony

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and England the chip lead system the
apprenticeship system

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was the way that one learned how to be a
lawyer and so in Ontario that was

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adopted

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overtime board more we drew ideas

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from the United States where the Harvard
Law School model

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came to be seen as the way to train
lawyers

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but Intel realize you will discover
never abandon the idea

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that learning about how to do things it
through an apprenticeship

191
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was an important aspect of legal
education so wanna looks

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what I look at the last 150 years or so
love

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legal education through the eyes love

194
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six lawyers Nainital apologize for the
fact

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that all of them except one

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who I wish had been a member of askins
wasn't all them

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there at the time to look at a member's
a fast dance that's in part because

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just written history the firm in these
are people that I've come to know

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and unlike in the tell the story very
well

200
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so we'll start with

201
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Edward Marion Chad

202
00:12:23,088 --> 00:12:26,095
1857 marion is he was called

203
00:12:27,058 --> 00:12:30,085
began his legal studies in wells

204
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where he became an article search he was
16 years old

205
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he had done high school

206
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as matriculated as they said them and he
was about to become a lawyer

207
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so the Law Society provided him

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with a little guidance they said a
lawyer needs to be conversant with the

209
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knowledge of the profession

210
00:12:58,006 --> 00:13:02,052
in all its branches the practice as well
as the principles

211
00:13:02,052 --> 00:13:05,052
with equity as well as common law

212
00:13:05,052 --> 00:13:08,066
the rules a pleading and those evidence

213
00:13:08,066 --> 00:13:11,123
in short your to place yourself in a
position

214
00:13:12,023 --> 00:13:16,065
to be able without extrinsic aid to
advise a client

215
00:13:16,065 --> 00:13:19,072
on any matter in which he may require
advice

216
00:13:19,072 --> 00:13:22,145
and the carries through a suit in all
its stages

217
00:13:23,045 --> 00:13:26,074
okay sounds all great that's that's the
goal

218
00:13:26,074 --> 00:13:30,156
how do I get to their well Teach
Yourself

219
00:13:31,056 --> 00:13:34,103
there was no formal instruction

220
00:13:35,003 --> 00:13:39,064
he just became an article clerk

221
00:13:39,064 --> 00:13:42,066
in a law office and worked with Messer's

222
00:13:42,066 --> 00:13:46,098
lemon and Peterson Inc Wells where he
discovered

223
00:13:46,098 --> 00:13:49,125
that law was a lot of

224
00:13:50,025 --> 00:13:53,037
menial tasks at least as he sought

225
00:13:53,037 --> 00:13:56,064
he was filing documents he was doing

226
00:13:56,064 --> 00:13:59,129
searches titles and mostly he was
writing

227
00:14:00,029 --> 00:14:04,075
penmanship

228
00:14:04,075 --> 00:14:07,130
was considered to be the most important
attribute the law student

229
00:14:08,003 --> 00:14:11,021
to be able to write clearly

230
00:14:11,048 --> 00:14:14,055
that's your magical world where

231
00:14:14,055 --> 00:14:17,102
all of the documents that he is going to
be dealing with with the exception of

232
00:14:18,002 --> 00:14:19,036
you printed tax

233
00:14:19,036 --> 00:14:24,071
are hand written and as a historian who
goes through and reads diaries and

234
00:14:24,071 --> 00:14:25,120
letters and so on

235
00:14:26,002 --> 00:14:29,067
good penmanship is something you do
really come to appreciate

236
00:14:29,085 --> 00:14:31,170
because people who scroll

237
00:14:32,007 --> 00:14:37,044
are very hard to understand soul one of
the important task issuer law student

238
00:14:38,007 --> 00:14:41,024
and you're starting your career by the
important tasks you would have has

239
00:14:41,024 --> 00:14:41,103
learned to

240
00:14:42,003 --> 00:14:48,012
in gross documents documents would be
prepared by the lawyers in some sort of

241
00:14:48,012 --> 00:14:49,013
shorthand

242
00:14:49,013 --> 00:14:54,028
and then you would have to write it out
in full in beautiful penmanship so it

243
00:14:54,028 --> 00:14:54,075
could be you

244
00:14:54,075 --> 00:14:58,076
red easily by the courts or by the other
members of the

245
00:14:58,076 --> 00:15:02,117
if you're doing your transaction so

246
00:15:03,017 --> 00:15:08,035
a lot of attention was paid depends
penmanship very important aspect

247
00:15:08,035 --> 00:15:11,041
trainee and as it happened Chadwick was
an exceptionally good

248
00:15:11,095 --> 00:15:15,168
10 min he was also an artist as you can
see from the this is from his diary

249
00:15:16,068 --> 00:15:19,090
Monday 14th

250
00:15:19,009 --> 00:15:23,031
some month showed up at at lemon and
Peterson

251
00:15:24,012 --> 00:15:27,054
and got too tall to go off and help

252
00:15:27,054 --> 00:15:31,129
with the feeding of the poor Solaris for
this

253
00:15:32,029 --> 00:15:36,046
beautiful picture this is

254
00:15:36,046 --> 00:15:39,119
the diary that he prepared when he
started his law studies a brief

255
00:15:40,019 --> 00:15:43,115
accurate record or journal up the deets
miss the

256
00:15:44,015 --> 00:15:48,098
it's our adventures Edward Marion's
headway commenced on the first day of

257
00:15:48,098 --> 00:15:51,102
January in the year of our Lord 1861

258
00:15:52,002 --> 00:15:55,054
thank goodness by the way for his diary
it's whether

259
00:15:55,054 --> 00:15:58,130
reasons why I was able to tell the story
of askins in the early years

260
00:15:59,003 --> 00:16:02,101
his youthful enthusiasm for law

261
00:16:03,028 --> 00:16:07,055
waned at when he discovered was involved
in being

262
00:16:07,055 --> 00:16:13,069
a law student people yet wanna to
understand

263
00:16:13,069 --> 00:16:17,113
more about law and is it happened he had
an opportunity

264
00:16:18,013 --> 00:16:21,076
because they had just started in 1858

265
00:16:21,076 --> 00:16:24,141
at the Law Society had appointed to
permanent lectures

266
00:16:25,041 --> 00:16:29,084
SH strong for equity in JT Anderson for
law

267
00:16:29,084 --> 00:16:32,158
and they began to offer lectures at
Osgoode Hall

268
00:16:33,058 --> 00:16:36,062
which look like

269
00:16:36,062 --> 00:16:39,131
that in the old days

270
00:16:40,031 --> 00:16:42,112
so the only

271
00:16:43,012 --> 00:16:46,096
fly in the ointment was that you had to
go to trial to attend the lectures

272
00:16:46,096 --> 00:16:49,169
it was much misguided by many people

273
00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:53,140
in the province as an inappropriate

274
00:16:54,004 --> 00:16:57,022
expropriation of legal talent by trato

275
00:16:57,058 --> 00:17:00,115
up because Autoline landed in various
places

276
00:17:01,015 --> 00:17:04,069
all of whom could of course train
lawyers to the apprenticeship program

277
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:07,096
did not have the lectures and so many

278
00:17:07,096 --> 00:17:10,128
went to trial to attend these voluntary
lectures

279
00:17:11,028 --> 00:17:15,114
and they were voluntary a they were just
intended to prepare you for your exams

280
00:17:16,014 --> 00:17:19,023
no marking are on the lectures as such

281
00:17:19,023 --> 00:17:24,109
so that the thought was that at this was
the way the trial was attracting all

282
00:17:25,009 --> 00:17:27,072
this talent people go to law school
there then would stay there in practice

283
00:17:27,072 --> 00:17:28,075
in trouble

284
00:17:28,075 --> 00:17:31,172
many people a in the province complain
that it was inappropriate

285
00:17:32,072 --> 00:17:37,077
that that happen so in in February 1862

286
00:17:37,077 --> 00:17:40,092
when he had about a year left in this
article's

287
00:17:40,092 --> 00:17:45,157
chadwick went off to Toronto and he
finished

288
00:17:46,057 --> 00:17:50,103
he attended the lectures and he finished
his lectures unfairly the 20th 1862 he

289
00:17:51,003 --> 00:17:52,021
wrote in his diary

290
00:17:52,021 --> 00:17:55,028
articles expired I am released from
bondage

291
00:17:55,091 --> 00:18:00,169
5 exclamation marks he clearly was happy
to be out

292
00:18:01,069 --> 00:18:05,160
but he still had the to writers
excelencia two sets for exams

293
00:18:06,006 --> 00:18:09,009
1 these are both oral and written exams

294
00:18:09,009 --> 00:18:12,015
want to be certified as a solicitor

295
00:18:12,096 --> 00:18:15,103
and then a year later another exam

296
00:18:16,003 --> 00:18:20,028
to be called to the bar as a barrister
so

297
00:18:20,028 --> 00:18:23,076
after he passed the first set it make
sense

298
00:18:23,076 --> 00:18:27,081
he and his roommate Calvin brown began
to study

299
00:18:28,026 --> 00:18:32,104
for the really hard exams to be called
as a barrister and he prepared very

300
00:18:33,004 --> 00:18:33,096
detailed

301
00:18:33,096 --> 00:18:37,182
materials River their teaching
themselves like say at this point so we

302
00:18:38,082 --> 00:18:40,144
gotta get all this mature they thought
well you know we've got

303
00:18:41,044 --> 00:18:48,044
a lot of really good study notes so
being entrepreneurial they publish them

304
00:18:49,071 --> 00:18:52,084
this was the first text books that was
prepared for Osgoode Hall

305
00:18:52,084 --> 00:18:56,180
Osgoode Hall examination questions given
at examinations for call

306
00:18:57,008 --> 00:19:01,065
with and without on urs for certificate
of fitness with concise answers

307
00:19:02,037 --> 00:19:06,052
and the Student's Guide collection of
directions and forms for the use of

308
00:19:06,052 --> 00:19:06,150
students at law

309
00:19:07,005 --> 00:19:10,046
an article certs was a best-seller

310
00:19:10,091 --> 00:19:13,099
amongst other few legal students that
they were at the time

311
00:19:14,071 --> 00:19:19,170
the cars will publish that so

312
00:19:20,007 --> 00:19:23,049
he then of course had to go often find a
job

313
00:19:24,012 --> 00:19:27,048
as he said to sell themselves to diverse
legal practitioners

314
00:19:27,048 --> 00:19:30,113
but he was unable to do so

315
00:19:31,013 --> 00:19:34,086
he ended up spending a year with the
firm

316
00:19:34,086 --> 00:19:37,150
that hit are tickled with without pay
just two

317
00:19:38,005 --> 00:19:42,069
to get experience any good fortune in
the in fact

318
00:19:43,014 --> 00:19:46,062
ended up meeting a young lady her
brother

319
00:19:46,062 --> 00:19:50,117
happen to be also fact getting ready to
practice law

320
00:19:51,017 --> 00:19:55,059
and the two of them form to a law firm
in February 1863

321
00:19:55,059 --> 00:19:59,060
called billion chadwick which we know
today as fast can mark no

322
00:19:59,006 --> 00:20:02,099
Dylan L p so

323
00:20:03,053 --> 00:20:06,136
that list mister Chadwick's experience
with love very much in the English

324
00:20:07,036 --> 00:20:07,107
tradition

325
00:20:08,007 --> 00:20:13,008
little bit of have lecturing but mostly
self-study

326
00:20:13,008 --> 00:20:19,060
let's go on a few years going to the
eighteen seventies

327
00:20:19,006 --> 00:20:26,006
look at Thomas gives blackstock Palace
gives blacks like this one of my

328
00:20:26,093 --> 00:20:27,117
favorite

329
00:20:28,017 --> 00:20:31,050
a lawyers in history of the fastenings
lawford

330
00:20:31,005 --> 00:20:34,024
for a whole host of reasons interesting
man

331
00:20:34,069 --> 00:20:38,133
he was the son of a

332
00:20:39,033 --> 00:20:44,114
very influential but poor Methodist
minister so his father was an itinerant

333
00:20:45,014 --> 00:20:47,085
preacher he would go around on horseback

334
00:20:47,085 --> 00:20:50,106
from community to community in the
Methodist

335
00:20:51,006 --> 00:20:55,061
teaching are preaching sees me and often
paid in chickens and

336
00:20:55,061 --> 00:20:59,122
who whatever aches

337
00:21:00,022 --> 00:21:03,025
in a lot of money at 8:16

338
00:21:03,052 --> 00:21:07,146
Tom I'll left home because he was a
burden he thought in this family

339
00:21:08,046 --> 00:21:11,089
he went to live with his in-laws know as
it happened

340
00:21:11,089 --> 00:21:14,093
his his mother was hella

341
00:21:14,093 --> 00:21:18,177
well-to-do family the Gibbs family from
partial and a

342
00:21:19,077 --> 00:21:23,102
so Sir Tom was looked after by the Gibbs

343
00:21:24,002 --> 00:21:27,026
the Tom refused

344
00:21:27,026 --> 00:21:31,110
to have the gives people papers
education because he just thought that

345
00:21:32,001 --> 00:21:35,047
it was inappropriate he won't be
beholden to them

346
00:21:35,056 --> 00:21:38,097
so insisted that he pay its own way and

347
00:21:38,097 --> 00:21:42,161
his father had told him that there is
nothing better than a university

348
00:21:43,061 --> 00:21:43,134
education

349
00:21:44,034 --> 00:21:48,060
so he wanted to go to Le Toux University

350
00:21:48,006 --> 00:21:53,063
now this was a optional way of preparing
for law at the time

351
00:21:54,017 --> 00:21:57,065
you had a choice you could do as

352
00:21:57,065 --> 00:22:00,138
chadwick it done and spend five years
articling

353
00:22:01,038 --> 00:22:04,131
without going to university right out of
high school or you could go to

354
00:22:05,031 --> 00:22:05,120
university

355
00:22:06,002 --> 00:22:11,016
get an undergraduate degree and then all
you had to do was spend three years

356
00:22:11,034 --> 00:22:14,092
articling now if you add up to discover
that

357
00:22:14,092 --> 00:22:17,155
that mean she say an extra year if you
go to university Height's 05 the first

358
00:22:18,055 --> 00:22:18,119
way through

359
00:22:19,019 --> 00:22:22,046
6 the year the second way through but

360
00:22:22,046 --> 00:22:26,052
your better-educated but what was
happening is that the well-to-do people

361
00:22:27,006 --> 00:22:30,097
we're going to university and the people
who had to pay their own way we're not

362
00:22:30,097 --> 00:22:35,170
because three years tuition you know
room and board how this the things it

363
00:22:36,007 --> 00:22:39,045
lawless and know only too well was a
real

364
00:22:40,008 --> 00:22:45,081
challenge for people who didn't have
money now

365
00:22:45,081 --> 00:22:49,085
as they say Tom hat could have head is
in-laws

366
00:22:49,085 --> 00:22:53,148
pay for the University that he insisted
that that not be the case but he was

367
00:22:54,048 --> 00:22:55,144
very smart man he won a scholarship

368
00:22:56,044 --> 00:22:59,103
at Upper Canada College and then another
scholarship at the University

369
00:23:00,003 --> 00:23:00,100
a

370
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,809
China so that certainly help but it
didn't pay for all

371
00:23:03,809 --> 00:23:07,970
we're very fortunate harm because he was
led away from home

372
00:23:07,097 --> 00:23:11,100
wrote these letters to his parents and
so we have all of these things in which

373
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:12,085
he's debating

374
00:23:12,085 --> 00:23:15,172
do I ill go to university why not

375
00:23:16,072 --> 00:23:20,084
at one point he said I use Google you
ever seen the rotors father

376
00:23:20,084 --> 00:23:23,120
and he said to dear Papa

377
00:23:24,002 --> 00:23:27,040
in what is it in response where the
numerous

378
00:23:27,058 --> 00:23:30,277
advertisements appearing in the globe
for a law student

379
00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:34,820
I apply to Snelling and Clark I wait
upon them today

380
00:23:34,082 --> 00:23:38,135
was asked to do some writing how do you
tell the good law student

381
00:23:39,035 --> 00:23:42,037
right and of course I did my worst

382
00:23:42,037 --> 00:23:45,125
but they did offer me fifty dollars a
year though I could have got more

383
00:23:46,025 --> 00:23:50,086
had a pressed but I prefer to be at my
ease and lastly the quiz consideration

384
00:23:50,086 --> 00:23:51,125
is that I expect five years

385
00:23:52,025 --> 00:23:55,069
in learning the profession by which I
expect to pay my butt

386
00:23:55,069 --> 00:23:58,100
my bread and butter consider three years
hiding between

387
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,000
Osgoode Hall in office will be better
and what could be better

388
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,046
in learning from and a burly getting so
willing mister clarke

389
00:24:07,046 --> 00:24:10,079
well as father said no no no hold on a
second here

390
00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:14,095
don't give up your dream is a way to go
to university

391
00:24:14,095 --> 00:24:17,095
Tom then when she talked with teachers
and they said yes

392
00:24:17,095 --> 00:24:20,146
no university education will be better
although it's funny

393
00:24:21,046 --> 00:24:24,054
mister louder his professor at the
University thomas et al

394
00:24:25,026 --> 00:24:28,045
it seems to be upon the whole

395
00:24:28,045 --> 00:24:31,126
that if you have sufficient means it's
better to take the university course

396
00:24:32,026 --> 00:24:36,061
though University men do not do as well
as others

397
00:24:36,061 --> 00:24:39,102
because you're not sufficiently
acquainted with business but

398
00:24:40,002 --> 00:24:43,100
you might get on well issue go for three
years into an office for the large

399
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,036
connection such as blake's cell

400
00:24:48,036 --> 00:24:52,098
Tom did decide that he woulda continue
with the University

401
00:24:52,098 --> 00:24:56,161
and he came up with a novel way of
paying for universe

402
00:24:57,061 --> 00:25:02,134
he went buffalo hunting

403
00:25:03,034 --> 00:25:05,045
how many lawyers started their career

404
00:25:05,045 --> 00:25:08,049
as a buffalo hunt I suspect that Tom may
be unique in that regard

405
00:25:08,085 --> 00:25:11,110
hiya he didn't initially

406
00:25:12,001 --> 00:25:16,002
intend to be about 400 he actually
thought he would sell bibles hywell

407
00:25:16,002 --> 00:25:21,111
to Topeka Kansas with a stack of Bibles
and discovered that lo and behold nobody

408
00:25:21,309 --> 00:25:26,950
wanted to buy them so he did say Topeka
Kansas was the most Eastern like a

409
00:25:26,095 --> 00:25:28,110
western cities the most churchgoing

410
00:25:29,001 --> 00:25:32,080
another study that it could get a job I
couldn't sellers bibles

411
00:25:32,089 --> 00:25:36,146
so you not to dodge City and every
family had salable skills

412
00:25:37,046 --> 00:25:41,074
because he knew how to ride having done
with this father writing about to

413
00:25:41,074 --> 00:25:45,513
to the various churches and he also was
an award-winning

414
00:25:46,179 --> 00:25:50,010
marksman with the Queen's Own rifles and
so we put a skills

415
00:25:50,001 --> 00:25:54,063
to use any hunted buffalo now for those
of you who are environmentally conscious

416
00:25:54,063 --> 00:25:57,099
what to assure you that in fact

417
00:25:57,099 --> 00:26:00,164
harvest gives blackstock was an
environmentalist

418
00:26:01,064 --> 00:26:05,069
it's true he did participate in the
slaughtering buffalo but he felt guilty

419
00:26:05,069 --> 00:26:05,111
about it

420
00:26:06,011 --> 00:26:09,065
and you later when he was a successful
lawyer

421
00:26:09,065 --> 00:26:12,126
he donated a her to Buffalo to the
Canadian government which

422
00:26:13,026 --> 00:26:16,087
is the basis for the a Wood Buffalo
National Park heard

423
00:26:16,087 --> 00:26:20,180
and I was reading a history have parks
in Kent and they say that that donation

424
00:26:21,008 --> 00:26:22,077
by Thomas gives blacks like

425
00:26:23,049 --> 00:26:27,064
changed a conservation in Canada
significantly soul

426
00:26:27,064 --> 00:26:30,072
we can forgive him for his buffalo
hunting

427
00:26:30,072 --> 00:26:33,084
but he did come back with a lot of Los
skins

428
00:26:33,084 --> 00:26:37,176
and he paid for his education he resumed
his studies in 1874

429
00:26:38,076 --> 00:26:41,128
briefly articles with William I like one
of the great

430
00:26:42,028 --> 00:26:45,073
chortle barristers but he didn't like
working with my like

431
00:26:45,073 --> 00:26:48,082
has Malik made it work too hard didn't
leave enough time do is studies

432
00:26:49,063 --> 00:26:53,066
as a member the whole purpose about this
is the pass the exams at the end

433
00:26:53,066 --> 00:26:58,138
so I joined another smaller firm but
much disagree and they did not offer him

434
00:26:59,038 --> 00:26:59,124
a position

435
00:27:00,024 --> 00:27:04,052
when he was called to the Bar he briefly
practiced on its own

436
00:27:04,052 --> 00:27:05,139
and then much to his family chagrin

437
00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:09,070
he went into partnership with a drinker
and a smoker

438
00:27:09,007 --> 00:27:12,014
I'll my goodness so they had to do
something about that

439
00:27:13,004 --> 00:27:17,011
so they took a matter that for a man
they got a mini putting into the Goodman

440
00:27:17,047 --> 00:27:18,048
what's family for

441
00:27:18,057 --> 00:27:21,063
firm just gives for related to the good
ones and

442
00:27:22,017 --> 00:27:25,022
that for was median chadwick and sold

443
00:27:25,022 --> 00:27:28,023
come join that for the provincial became
call

444
00:27:28,023 --> 00:27:31,051
PD blackstock what are the people that

445
00:27:31,051 --> 00:27:34,056
reeves met when he was articulate my
like

446
00:27:34,056 --> 00:27:40,056
was William Albert reeve who you all
should know

447
00:27:40,056 --> 00:27:43,080
because he was the first principle
Osgoode Hall Law School

448
00:27:43,008 --> 00:27:48,032
now when tom Adam he was not that he was
practicing

449
00:27:49,004 --> 00:27:52,078
as a sole practitioner in Napa neon te
reo

450
00:27:52,078 --> 00:27:55,122
reversal was very well-educated

451
00:27:56,022 --> 00:27:59,058
not only did he have an undergraduate
degree but he had a master's degree as

452
00:27:59,058 --> 00:27:59,062
well

453
00:27:59,098 --> 00:28:02,176
the problem with the

454
00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:07,079
with we've unfortunately is that he
wasn't good with clients

455
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:12,101
either getting them or keeping them two
important skills you'll discover when

456
00:28:13,001 --> 00:28:14,020
you're a practicing

457
00:28:14,002 --> 00:28:17,087
he was considered to be

458
00:28:18,005 --> 00:28:22,009
to retiring a disposition the reality is

459
00:28:22,045 --> 00:28:26,072
he was to academic for a

460
00:28:26,072 --> 00:28:29,088
for the practice he practiced the

461
00:28:29,088 --> 00:28:33,089
Tom blacks that brought him into the
fast ends for men he

462
00:28:33,098 --> 00:28:37,149
practice unsuccessfully there for a few
years and then

463
00:28:38,049 --> 00:28:42,067
mister be tried to get him a job as a
judge which is why he's

464
00:28:42,067 --> 00:28:46,092
writing to Sir John a MacDonald here
that it was quite

465
00:28:46,092 --> 00:28:49,191
suited to be a judge had very good
judgment he just doesn't foresee what's

466
00:28:50,091 --> 00:28:50,169
good with people

467
00:28:51,069 --> 00:28:54,081
so

468
00:28:54,081 --> 00:28:58,094
hiya he didn't get the judgeship but he
got to be the first

469
00:28:58,094 --> 00:29:01,156
in applause get a law school the first
full-time teacher a flaw

470
00:29:02,056 --> 00:29:06,120
in the province Ontario and being the
good academic that he was what did he do

471
00:29:07,002 --> 00:29:08,060
when he became deion

472
00:29:08,078 --> 00:29:10,162
or principle it is me

473
00:29:11,062 --> 00:29:14,108
he he went down to the states and you
into Harvard in

474
00:29:15,008 --> 00:29:18,032
Cornell various University law schools

475
00:29:18,032 --> 00:29:22,114
and studied what they were doing down
there and brought a lot of their ideas

476
00:29:23,014 --> 00:29:30,014
back to 20 real now in the debate that I
mentioned about the practical

477
00:29:32,007 --> 00:29:35,021
verses you know the theoretical and the

478
00:29:35,021 --> 00:29:38,066
somebody at more academic grounding for
law

479
00:29:38,066 --> 00:29:41,124
the 4ws versus the Y he

480
00:29:42,024 --> 00:29:45,036
he was trying to find a way in a sense
the blend the two together

481
00:29:45,036 --> 00:29:49,070
he gave his opening talk

482
00:29:49,007 --> 00:29:53,010
at the law school and said rightly
considered there is no conflict

483
00:29:53,073 --> 00:29:57,073
between the educational functions of the
office and those at the school

484
00:29:57,073 --> 00:30:00,080
both are necessary each is the
compliment

485
00:30:00,008 --> 00:30:04,044
the other and in a sense if you were to
say what is the theme

486
00:30:05,016 --> 00:30:08,098
legal education and Terry L I think that
in a sense is the theme

487
00:30:08,098 --> 00:30:11,150
that you need both up academic training
is

488
00:30:12,005 --> 00:30:15,072
is I think today especially for the
world as complexities

489
00:30:16,017 --> 00:30:20,042
as it is is essential but practical
training is also important

490
00:30:20,042 --> 00:30:23,136
and so he built a system that

491
00:30:24,036 --> 00:30:27,071
try to take advantage both in making up
with a law school

492
00:30:27,071 --> 00:30:30,126
Ranger where they classes now became
compulsory

493
00:30:31,026 --> 00:30:34,054
butter but it was

494
00:30:34,054 --> 00:30:38,061
combined with practicing as an article
clerk

495
00:30:38,061 --> 00:30:41,760
see legal it's not your school

496
00:30:42,309 --> 00:30:45,510
day in the morning with lectures

497
00:30:45,051 --> 00:30:48,079
eight till 10 and then you go often

498
00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:51,145
practice as an article clerk throughout
the day

499
00:30:52,045 --> 00:30:55,079
and then come back from four till six to
get two more

500
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:59,157
later on Bora Laskin would say we got
students before they woke up in the

501
00:31:00,057 --> 00:31:02,059
morning and after they fell asleep at
night

502
00:31:02,059 --> 00:31:05,076
but that was the system

503
00:31:05,076 --> 00:31:08,100
that was created that system continue
for some long period of time

504
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,019
regrettably reeve didn't get to see much
of it

505
00:31:12,019 --> 00:31:15,055
he died at age 52 in 1894

506
00:31:15,055 --> 00:31:18,103
but one of the things that he did get to
see

507
00:31:19,003 --> 00:31:25,402
was this woman

508
00:31:25,429 --> 00:31:26,270
if there's a

509
00:31:26,027 --> 00:31:29,084
hero in a sense in our story a

510
00:31:29,084 --> 00:31:34,100
certainly Clara issues player but Mark
this is me

511
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,099
has two has to be one of the ones we
consider for level

512
00:31:38,099 --> 00:31:41,114
I see looking out here all the

513
00:31:42,014 --> 00:31:46,014
the women in the audience of course up
until

514
00:31:46,014 --> 00:31:50,083
Clara there were no women in law school
it was exclusively

515
00:31:50,083 --> 00:31:53,172
male is such that women we're like BRRip
up to

516
00:31:54,072 --> 00:31:58,163
retiring disposition to gentle not
sufficiently strong to be

517
00:31:59,063 --> 00:32:02,065
good advocates altera proved that wrong
for sure

518
00:32:02,083 --> 00:32:06,121
a she turned out to be a very very good
advocate for her role in causing the

519
00:32:07,021 --> 00:32:08,030
cause of women in law school generally

520
00:32:09,011 --> 00:32:12,460
so her first problem

521
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:16,470
the on Lake you know whether

522
00:32:16,047 --> 00:32:19,128
Tom gives blackstock a who what

523
00:32:20,028 --> 00:32:23,073
it debated about doing a university in
some she'd already gone to university

524
00:32:23,073 --> 00:32:25,076
had an undergraduate degree when she
applied

525
00:32:26,003 --> 00:32:29,762
to to the law school in May 1891

526
00:32:29,789 --> 00:32:33,150
and and share the money to

527
00:32:33,015 --> 00:32:36,021
to pay for this but the benches never
last

528
00:32:36,075 --> 00:32:39,114
rejected her application on the basis
that she was not a person

529
00:32:40,014 --> 00:32:45,065
qualified to come a lawyer the words

530
00:32:45,065 --> 00:32:48,158
in the Law Society act where you know
that the loss it is open to persons

531
00:32:49,058 --> 00:32:53,110
seeking to enter the profession but
clearly persons did not mean women

532
00:32:54,001 --> 00:32:58,014
cell she didn't take this lying down

533
00:32:58,023 --> 00:33:02,089
she put together a coalition of
prominent people in the community who

534
00:33:02,089 --> 00:33:03,098
supported her

535
00:33:03,098 --> 00:33:07,103
the most prominent of which was her
premium 0 at the premier of the province

536
00:33:08,048 --> 00:33:09,061
of Ontario

537
00:33:09,061 --> 00:33:12,076
so to ensure that could be no doubt

538
00:33:12,076 --> 00:33:15,169
millet to the government passed a bill
in the entire legislature

539
00:33:16,069 --> 00:33:19,151
that permitted the Law Society to
consider the admission of women s

540
00:33:20,051 --> 00:33:20,122
listeners

541
00:33:21,022 --> 00:33:24,069
so in September 1892 they did consider

542
00:33:24,069 --> 00:33:27,087
the admission women and they decided no

543
00:33:27,087 --> 00:33:30,386
that they don't pull so

544
00:33:31,169 --> 00:33:33,830
Premium Outlets not place

545
00:33:33,083 --> 00:33:34,178
as a former attorney general he was

546
00:33:35,078 --> 00:33:39,167
annex official bencher the Law Society
so he personally attended convocation

547
00:33:40,067 --> 00:33:44,164
as was his right in December animated
motion that women

548
00:33:45,064 --> 00:33:50,068
the admitted to the profession and even
though this was the premier of the

549
00:33:51,004 --> 00:33:52,035
province of Ontario

550
00:33:52,035 --> 00:33:55,049
the vote was close 12 to 11

551
00:33:55,049 --> 00:33:59,100
but clear I got here she are tickled
with a

552
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,036
with Malec as Malik Miller's the firms
and was called

553
00:34:04,036 --> 00:34:07,124
a just let you know how small a
profession was

554
00:34:08,024 --> 00:34:11,030
the Miller that was molecular

555
00:34:11,084 --> 00:34:16,093
was Nicholas Miller whose departure from
the BT firm had opened up the place for

556
00:34:16,093 --> 00:34:16,135
a

557
00:34:17,035 --> 00:34:21,061
for relieved to join the firm is a small
community in those days

558
00:34:21,061 --> 00:34:26,133
so in 1896 Clara convince the entire
legislature Twitter to be called to the

559
00:34:27,033 --> 00:34:27,112
bar as well

560
00:34:28,012 --> 00:34:32,047
initially they were allowed to be only
solicitors

561
00:34:32,047 --> 00:34:35,103
but then in 1886

562
00:34:36,003 --> 00:34:39,020
province and said you know you can also
be called to the bar

563
00:34:39,002 --> 00:34:42,039
and she became the first woman

564
00:34:42,057 --> 00:34:45,102
called the bar in the British Empire but

565
00:34:46,002 --> 00:34:51,006
she didn't find a place at BT blackstock
or any of the large downtown firms

566
00:34:51,006 --> 00:34:54,038
that it takes sixty years before

567
00:34:54,038 --> 00:35:00,043
they broke into the large law firms now
what are the people

568
00:35:00,043 --> 00:35:03,045
that Clara a was in class with

569
00:35:03,063 --> 00:35:06,098
with this gentleman what's

570
00:35:06,098 --> 00:35:10,120
or I can't say it great line if it were
not a nice

571
00:35:11,002 --> 00:35:14,026
set out to open the way to the bar for
others at my sex

572
00:35:14,044 --> 00:35:17,066
I would have given up the effort long
ago that's what she's had a thing called

573
00:35:17,066 --> 00:35:17,119
to the Bar

574
00:35:18,019 --> 00:35:23,021
the Sun easy road for her by the way she
became a family lawyer

575
00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:27,047
which was regardless like you know

576
00:35:27,047 --> 00:35:34,047
the women's role in law for a number of
years

577
00:35:35,789 --> 00:35:36,260
okay

578
00:35:36,026 --> 00:35:39,123
that well the people that she would have
met at Law School this gentleman

579
00:35:40,023 --> 00:35:44,092
Rs Robertson Robert spelman Robertson

580
00:35:44,299 --> 00:35:49,306
who like chadwick went into law grade
out of high school

581
00:35:49,369 --> 00:35:52,490
now

582
00:35:52,049 --> 00:35:55,117
it wasn't because his family didn't
favor education in fact it was the

583
00:35:56,017 --> 00:35:56,626
opposite

584
00:35:56,779 --> 00:35:59,828
he was the odd man out hits three
brothers

585
00:36:00,269 --> 00:36:03,323
his oldest brother John Charles
Robertson

586
00:36:03,809 --> 00:36:08,430
was the gold medalist at University of
Toronto did graduate work at Johns

587
00:36:08,043 --> 00:36:08,124
Hopkins

588
00:36:09,024 --> 00:36:14,063
became a noted classical scholar and in
fact became the

589
00:36:14,279 --> 00:36:17,330
dean of factly Arts at the University
oil so

590
00:36:17,789 --> 00:36:21,740
certainly somebody who knew academics
well second oldest brother

591
00:36:21,074 --> 00:36:24,139
Alexander Martin Robertson also
university graduate

592
00:36:25,039 --> 00:36:29,198
also taught at University in modern
languages and mathematics

593
00:36:29,549 --> 00:36:33,602
interesting combination William his
youngest brother

594
00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:37,470
a let University and became the editor

595
00:36:37,047 --> 00:36:41,446
up the God which signals the newspaper
in the Goderich where they grew up

596
00:36:41,869 --> 00:36:45,450
to RS robertson not going to university
was something unusual

597
00:36:45,045 --> 00:36:48,374
is clearly very bright

598
00:36:48,779 --> 00:36:52,160
it was just that he didn't think it was
the right way to learn how to be a

599
00:36:52,016 --> 00:36:52,064
lawyer

600
00:36:52,064 --> 00:36:55,503
he attended elementary school and high
school in Goderich

601
00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:59,190
and any went a you

602
00:36:59,019 --> 00:37:02,040
became an article clerk with JT Caro who
would later

603
00:37:02,004 --> 00:37:07,923
be appointed to the to the bench so he
was sworn in

604
00:37:08,319 --> 00:37:11,364
a as a barrister just before

605
00:37:11,769 --> 00:37:17,660
a corporate mark he became in fact one
event area's best

606
00:37:17,066 --> 00:37:22,069
litigators extremely good in 1931 at

607
00:37:22,096 --> 00:37:25,755
vacancy occurred in the ranks of the
benchers Robertson was chosen by

608
00:37:26,619 --> 00:37:26,713
complication

609
00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:30,564
to fill it and

610
00:37:30,609 --> 00:37:33,611
that was beginning at him being elected

611
00:37:33,809 --> 00:37:36,840
subsequently a venture when he became a
pincher

612
00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:42,040
he was appointed to the legal education
committee

613
00:37:42,004 --> 00:37:44,012
and they were faced with a question love

614
00:37:44,084 --> 00:37:47,090
art the law school to become

615
00:37:48,044 --> 00:37:52,052
a full-time University School

616
00:37:52,052 --> 00:37:56,055
Dean John Falconbridge in is teaching
staff

617
00:37:56,055 --> 00:38:00,067
at Osgoode Hall we're starting to push
for this now initially didn't ask for

618
00:38:00,067 --> 00:38:04,091
it to be a full-time university school
they wanted to be a full-time

619
00:38:04,091 --> 00:38:07,096
law school but the University part was

620
00:38:08,041 --> 00:38:12,126
what they would have liked but who
didn't initially asked for what are the

621
00:38:13,026 --> 00:38:14,079
people who is pushing for this

622
00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:17,085
was a slow

623
00:38:17,085 --> 00:38:20,103
see-saw Agustus right

624
00:38:21,003 --> 00:38:24,077
know if you have a name cease August is
it doesn't take long before your friends

625
00:38:24,077 --> 00:38:27,090
begin to call you Caesar Augustus or
caesar

626
00:38:27,009 --> 00:38:31,075
and thats the name that he came to be
known by now he looks like somebody who

627
00:38:32,056 --> 00:38:37,120
would say I favor an academic approach
to what do you think so

628
00:38:38,002 --> 00:38:41,005
he was a very bright guy from London
Ontario

629
00:38:41,005 --> 00:38:45,013
a came to the law school won the gold
medal

630
00:38:45,058 --> 00:38:48,067
a the Dean wanted him to go to Harvard

631
00:38:49,048 --> 00:38:52,130
for graduate work and he did and you
often did a a doctorate

632
00:38:53,003 --> 00:38:57,572
in law at Harvard they came back in a
joint

633
00:38:57,869 --> 00:39:01,130
the legal profession the the staff

634
00:39:01,013 --> 00:39:08,013
sees me at Osgoode Hall Law School what
are the people

635
00:39:08,085 --> 00:39:11,094
that he he got to know a fellow teacher

636
00:39:11,094 --> 00:39:14,096
at the school the Sydney Smith any view
have

637
00:39:15,014 --> 00:39:18,733
went to you lost he or visited you with
Tian see George

638
00:39:18,859 --> 00:39:22,650
will no Sydney Smith Hall is an awful
building

639
00:39:22,065 --> 00:39:26,065
a send Sydney Smith is actually a great
person its

640
00:39:26,065 --> 00:39:29,074
sad thing to be that that this very
interesting man gets is terrible

641
00:39:30,055 --> 00:39:30,148
building named after

642
00:39:31,048 --> 00:39:35,110
a anyway Sydney Smith and Cesar right
became

643
00:39:36,001 --> 00:39:40,048
very close friends and that became an
alliance that would change legal

644
00:39:40,057 --> 00:39:40,856
education

645
00:39:41,369 --> 00:39:44,560
they when I did

646
00:39:44,056 --> 00:39:47,057
quite different careers a Smith

647
00:39:47,066 --> 00:39:50,070
went off and became the

648
00:39:50,007 --> 00:39:52,061
the Dean at two

649
00:39:53,024 --> 00:39:54,095
the house the law school and then the

650
00:39:54,095 --> 00:39:58,103
the president at the University of
Manitoba and then in nineteen forty-five

651
00:39:59,003 --> 00:40:00,037
became the president

652
00:40:00,037 --> 00:40:04,045
at the University of Toronto meanwhile
Cesar right

653
00:40:04,045 --> 00:40:07,114
had spent his career trying to convince
the benchers

654
00:40:08,014 --> 00:40:11,081
to a change legal education

655
00:40:11,081 --> 00:40:15,164
his time at Harvard heading convince him
that

656
00:40:16,064 --> 00:40:19,068
University education was the proper way

657
00:40:19,068 --> 00:40:24,068
to train lawsuits and it became a slight
school

658
00:40:24,068 --> 00:40:28,163
to change the way that legal education
was carried out

659
00:40:29,063 --> 00:40:32,084
and it turned out Sydney Smith would be
a very

660
00:40:32,084 --> 00:40:35,158
valuable ally 12 became the president at
the University trial

661
00:40:36,058 --> 00:40:40,058
right his business was also very

662
00:40:40,058 --> 00:40:46,134
well connected politically a he would
eventually become a cabinet minister in

663
00:40:47,034 --> 00:40:47,103
the

664
00:40:48,003 --> 00:40:52,004
Diefenbaker Conservative government but

665
00:40:52,004 --> 00:40:56,022
his conservative ties political ties but
also prove very important

666
00:40:56,022 --> 00:41:01,066
in changing legal education now

667
00:41:01,066 --> 00:41:04,108
initially going back to 1930

668
00:41:05,008 --> 00:41:10,064
right a the first person to when the
people at right had to convince

669
00:41:10,064 --> 00:41:13,070
the legal education needed to change was
Rs Roberts

670
00:41:14,024 --> 00:41:17,078
now ever Rs robert is a product

671
00:41:17,078 --> 00:41:21,081
up the old system he has done
exceptionally well

672
00:41:21,081 --> 00:41:26,130
he does not believe that you need a
university education his by the standoff

673
00:41:27,003 --> 00:41:27,009
ended our

674
00:41:27,009 --> 00:41:30,010
University but he is dominating

675
00:41:30,091 --> 00:41:34,158
you know the legal profession without
any that's our training so he knows you

676
00:41:35,058 --> 00:41:38,157
it's not essential the you have the
summer training so

677
00:41:39,057 --> 00:41:46,057
he was not a enamored uprights ideas

678
00:41:48,339 --> 00:41:51,413
this is what he said in the nineteen
thirty-five report those written legal

679
00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:52,151
education

680
00:41:52,799 --> 00:41:56,807
if you gave students the sort of
Education right what

681
00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:01,641
university education they would be far
beyond the stage of learning to do

682
00:42:02,019 --> 00:42:06,098
accurately and carefully the innumerable
small things that fall for the lot

683
00:42:06,809 --> 00:42:10,812
at the online your is practice so

684
00:42:10,839 --> 00:42:13,883
member going back to art w's you know

685
00:42:14,279 --> 00:42:17,357
the emphasis is on the practice you know
are we gonna

686
00:42:18,059 --> 00:42:21,124
I think you know how to file documents
and you know when to

687
00:42:21,709 --> 00:42:25,650
do things in how to fill out forms and
all these sorts of things

688
00:42:25,065 --> 00:42:28,234
which have traditionally been the role
of the above the law student and the

689
00:42:28,819 --> 00:42:28,882
young lawyer

690
00:42:29,449 --> 00:42:33,532
as opposed to what right wanted to
encourage people to do was to think

691
00:42:34,279 --> 00:42:34,287
about the law

692
00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:39,430
to think about why things are gone the
way they're doing having a blog perform

693
00:42:39,043 --> 00:42:42,302
if we don't ever stop and think about
why the law takes shape but others

694
00:42:42,689 --> 00:42:46,773
so that's why I right wanted an honest
to god law school is used to call it

695
00:42:47,529 --> 00:42:53,160
as opposed to this cause the law school
that I asked hole was where you get

696
00:42:53,016 --> 00:42:53,555
people

697
00:42:53,699 --> 00:42:59,160
before they woke up in the morning and
after they fell asleep at night so

698
00:42:59,016 --> 00:43:02,405
summer of 1945 now we've gone ten years
later

699
00:43:02,549 --> 00:43:07,602
right is now working with his friend his
other president at the university of

700
00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:08,128
China

701
00:43:08,569 --> 00:43:11,586
what better allied to have in the fight
to turn

702
00:43:11,739 --> 00:43:16,420
law into a university disciplined and
have the president at the University

703
00:43:16,042 --> 00:43:19,631
as a former teacher at Osgoode Hall
endured longtime friend

704
00:43:20,009 --> 00:43:23,064
its it's funny when the

705
00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:27,601
when right learned that a Smith was
going to become the press at the

706
00:43:27,979 --> 00:43:29,170
University talking about this

707
00:43:29,017 --> 00:43:33,022
basic telegram Allah be praised Lassie
Come Home

708
00:43:33,067 --> 00:43:40,067
never happier in my life

709
00:43:41,099 --> 00:43:41,191
it was an emotional

710
00:43:42,091 --> 00:43:46,166
outpouring so he had his friend

711
00:43:47,066 --> 00:43:50,127
who do they have to convince who they
want to get on side

712
00:43:51,027 --> 00:43:55,101
Rs Robertson now Rs Robertson is the
chief justice

713
00:43:56,001 --> 00:43:59,018
up the province of Ontario very powerful

714
00:43:59,018 --> 00:44:02,039
figure very influential person somebody
who's opinion

715
00:44:02,039 --> 00:44:06,043
would matter to the Ventures a former
venture person who wrote

716
00:44:06,043 --> 00:44:09,129
the report 1935 that said that you know
things were good as they were

717
00:44:10,029 --> 00:44:13,037
if we can get him on side then surely we
can win the

718
00:44:14,009 --> 00:44:17,093
the battle so right goes off to see in
the summer

719
00:44:17,093 --> 00:44:20,169
at at his cottage a

720
00:44:21,069 --> 00:44:25,143
make never won and is sitting by the
lake

721
00:44:26,043 --> 00:44:30,045
talking about legal education I can
imagine more exciting things to talk

722
00:44:30,063 --> 00:44:33,094
about but that's what they were talking
and it was exciting to them because

723
00:44:33,094 --> 00:44:36,131
it matter to that their lives 1

724
00:44:37,031 --> 00:44:40,112
because he was the teacher the students
and the other because he saw the results

725
00:44:41,012 --> 00:44:48,012
what was coming out of the law school's
in front of him on a daily basis so

726
00:44:50,017 --> 00:44:51,102
since this was not there so

727
00:44:52,002 --> 00:44:55,063
right after the meeting wrote to say
this with telling him what

728
00:44:55,063 --> 00:45:00,071
Robertson said he thinks that legal
education and Terry was lousy

729
00:45:00,071 --> 00:45:04,169
something must be done his the moving to
the idea that the best thing is to give

730
00:45:05,069 --> 00:45:06,076
a lawyer a good education

731
00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:11,103
and he will know how to go about his
practical work I have a feeling he likes

732
00:45:12,003 --> 00:45:12,036
me

733
00:45:12,036 --> 00:45:16,082
for exhibition five-hole 5

734
00:45:16,082 --> 00:45:20,138
well he also was very excited so

735
00:45:21,038 --> 00:45:24,096
they thought this is it we've got the
Chief Justice Montero nice I'd

736
00:45:24,096 --> 00:45:27,163
how can we lose well ventures
unfortunately

737
00:45:28,063 --> 00:45:32,097
they may have admired robertson's career
and so on but they thought its third for

738
00:45:32,097 --> 00:45:34,134
the fact that the current system was
quite good

739
00:45:35,034 --> 00:45:38,088
it produced Robertson why do we need to
change

740
00:45:38,088 --> 00:45:42,155
so they would not do this right and

741
00:45:43,055 --> 00:45:46,058
and Smith got the province the pre near
the province material

742
00:45:46,085 --> 00:45:49,138
on onside to encourage the Ventures the
Law Society

743
00:45:50,038 --> 00:45:53,065
to rethink the issue just says closer
Brett Martin had gotten

744
00:45:53,065 --> 00:45:57,100
more downside this time the result
wasn't

745
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,097
disclose and it was a loss the

746
00:46:01,097 --> 00:46:04,097
but the less I did agree to do was to
have a study

747
00:46:04,097 --> 00:46:08,121
and they commissioned the study and 1948

748
00:46:09,021 --> 00:46:12,043
sees a right became dean of the school

749
00:46:12,043 --> 00:46:15,124
by virtue I'll seniority I suspect and
he was an excellent teacher but

750
00:46:16,024 --> 00:46:19,025
but I don't think at that point on the
bench is particularly liked him

751
00:46:19,034 --> 00:46:22,080
he'd become a thorn in their side was
always going off

752
00:46:22,008 --> 00:46:25,050
have she would love to

753
00:46:26,022 --> 00:46:30,065
to quote as is things and say to the
globe for the star

754
00:46:30,065 --> 00:46:33,082
and so on you know if medicine where
like law

755
00:46:33,082 --> 00:46:37,109
will be in the age at the leeches still
so

756
00:46:38,009 --> 00:46:42,028
so you didn't pick it like right but it
is

757
00:46:42,028 --> 00:46:44,111
they said they would study it and they
did study it and they produce the report

758
00:46:45,011 --> 00:46:46,049
that came out in March

759
00:46:46,049 --> 00:46:49,140
1949 ironically on the day that I was
born

760
00:46:50,004 --> 00:46:53,083
I thought to myself when I was doing
this study I mustard intended

761
00:46:54,019 --> 00:46:58,050
to write this history the report that
triggered all this with came out on the

762
00:46:58,005 --> 00:46:58,072
day I was born

763
00:46:59,017 --> 00:47:03,656
I didn't know a I was paying attention
to other things

764
00:47:03,809 --> 00:47:06,813
anyway so

765
00:47:06,849 --> 00:47:10,420
they were so upset with right that when
the issued the report they gave it to

766
00:47:10,042 --> 00:47:12,491
the newspapers and they did not tell the
Dean

767
00:47:12,869 --> 00:47:16,650
at the law school about what the final
report said he read about it in the

768
00:47:16,065 --> 00:47:16,684
newspaper

769
00:47:17,269 --> 00:47:20,380
The Globe and Mail call together is
factly

770
00:47:20,038 --> 00:47:24,247
Stanley Edwards John Willis Bora Laskin
wall to Williston

771
00:47:24,589 --> 00:47:27,980
and they all got together they decided
to resign on mass

772
00:47:27,098 --> 00:47:30,193
the supply can give the ventures any
choice with us quit

773
00:47:31,093 --> 00:47:34,512
gonna go off to you if he and finally

774
00:47:35,349 --> 00:47:38,880
found school and they're gonna have to
acknowledge us because after all they

775
00:47:38,088 --> 00:47:39,297
can't carry on without us

776
00:47:40,089 --> 00:47:44,720
her which when I was doing this research
on Willis

777
00:47:44,072 --> 00:47:47,163
wrote to me and said had we thought that
the benchers but actually accept their

778
00:47:48,063 --> 00:47:49,012
resignations

779
00:47:49,579 --> 00:47:53,410
I for one think not a princeton butter

780
00:47:53,041 --> 00:47:56,125
they didn't think they would accept that
but to be interested they said no no

781
00:47:57,025 --> 00:47:58,040
we're happy with the way things are

782
00:47:58,004 --> 00:48:01,004
so they a they accepted as an

783
00:48:01,004 --> 00:48:04,893
of Willis and and Laskin hadn't

784
00:48:05,289 --> 00:48:08,315
a she's right went Stanley Edwards

785
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:12,490
a and Walter williston went into private
practice

786
00:48:12,049 --> 00:48:15,066
Stanley term from the industry's RBD

787
00:48:15,066 --> 00:48:20,455
and Walter Willison at baskets sewer

788
00:48:21,049 --> 00:48:25,440
we now have a school being set up at UT

789
00:48:25,044 --> 00:48:28,133
has no students but it has excellent
factly

790
00:48:28,529 --> 00:48:31,630
and we have a lot of students at Osgoode
Hall no

791
00:48:31,063 --> 00:48:34,064
teachers no full-time teachers they had

792
00:48:34,064 --> 00:48:38,233
members in the profession we're still
teaching but the benches has been out

793
00:48:38,809 --> 00:48:39,630
and hired new

794
00:48:39,063 --> 00:48:41,752
faculty wanted to continue as

795
00:48:42,319 --> 00:48:45,367
they had been doing but the had to reach
a compromise

796
00:48:45,799 --> 00:48:48,807
they ended up going with two-year
full-time

797
00:48:49,599 --> 00:48:52,614
a program followed by two years

798
00:48:52,749 --> 00:48:56,130
%uh articling they were good enough to
say

799
00:48:56,013 --> 00:49:00,018
that the youth she graduates who after
all taught by the faculty that they

800
00:49:00,018 --> 00:49:01,092
themselves had had in place before

801
00:49:01,092 --> 00:49:05,531
the house they say they weren't
qualified a those people were admitted

802
00:49:06,359 --> 00:49:09,660
they they could then do the two years
apart ically as well

803
00:49:09,066 --> 00:49:12,955
so we gave me go back to the five is you
know the extra year

804
00:49:13,549 --> 00:49:17,551
if you wanna University a Education City
with UT

805
00:49:17,749 --> 00:49:22,140
you its three-year undergrad three years

806
00:49:22,014 --> 00:49:25,021
a at the that law school in two years
both

807
00:49:25,021 --> 00:49:28,090
a vertically if you want to ask you
could still go

808
00:49:28,279 --> 00:49:31,660
directly out of high school a

809
00:49:31,066 --> 00:49:35,070
but you would have to go at least three
years a at Law School in two years

810
00:49:35,007 --> 00:49:41,007
soul 1949 to 1957 thats wat continued

811
00:49:41,007 --> 00:49:44,028
a with the two schools and

812
00:49:44,091 --> 00:49:47,540
the a

813
00:49:48,359 --> 00:49:51,385
that this discrepancy in the in the
treatment of the group

814
00:49:51,619 --> 00:49:55,380
one of the people who

815
00:49:55,038 --> 00:49:58,237
work behind the scenes to bring the
benches around

816
00:49:58,579 --> 00:50:03,900
was Walt Wilson what is amazing man in a
lot of respects

817
00:50:03,009 --> 00:50:08,408
both good and bad a he did not join

818
00:50:09,299 --> 00:50:12,390
I'll right and Laskin and Willis

819
00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:15,388
at UT he returned to his private
practice he had been

820
00:50:15,739 --> 00:50:20,210
a is called to the bar in in 1944

821
00:50:20,021 --> 00:50:23,630
had been practicing a task is for two
years before he became a full-time

822
00:50:23,819 --> 00:50:25,380
teacher in 1948

823
00:50:25,038 --> 00:50:28,041
units that one year full-time teaching
at Osgoode Hall

824
00:50:28,068 --> 00:50:31,757
a sees a right to appointed him

825
00:50:32,369 --> 00:50:36,414
when he became dean the season was a
title to a point to people in

826
00:50:36,819 --> 00:50:39,896
one of them was Walter Willison and they
became

827
00:50:40,589 --> 00:50:44,604
lifelong friends and allies a but

828
00:50:44,739 --> 00:50:47,746
but Walter felt more at home in practice

829
00:50:47,809 --> 00:50:51,160
then in the classroom

830
00:50:51,016 --> 00:50:53,019
so after his eventful year the

831
00:50:53,046 --> 00:50:56,114
he he didn't go off

832
00:50:57,014 --> 00:51:00,703
to continue he she went into back in
private practice they worked

833
00:51:00,829 --> 00:51:03,890
behind the scenes he got elected as a
venture and he

834
00:51:03,089 --> 00:51:06,094
work to try to convince the Ventures
that

835
00:51:06,094 --> 00:51:09,121
their system with silly and that they
should go with the full time

836
00:51:10,021 --> 00:51:13,118
universities schools and open it up not
just you TVA to universities

837
00:51:14,018 --> 00:51:17,071
generally 22 1957

838
00:51:17,071 --> 00:51:21,139
for that happen and money ultimately
became the most important factor

839
00:51:22,039 --> 00:51:25,080
a it just got to expensive for

840
00:51:25,008 --> 00:51:29,008
at the the profession members the
privately funded school in those days

841
00:51:29,008 --> 00:51:32,103
a hospital so wears a

842
00:51:33,075 --> 00:51:36,080
universities were publicly funded so

843
00:51:37,025 --> 00:51:40,053
in 1957 the bench is finally decided
that was causing too much

844
00:51:40,053 --> 00:51:43,066
to do this they opened it up and we got
the system much

845
00:51:43,066 --> 00:51:46,097
as we know it today and while the people
who became important in

846
00:51:46,097 --> 00:51:50,976
achieving that goal was Walter Wilson
never tell you this little walter

847
00:51:51,849 --> 00:51:54,898
a night and again about that they do it
have questions

848
00:51:55,339 --> 00:51:59,040
a Walter was on more

849
00:51:59,004 --> 00:52:02,083
modern person he had a sense then

850
00:52:02,119 --> 00:52:05,490
than many other people we have looked at
in the study so far

851
00:52:05,049 --> 00:52:10,358
a for those of you who know anything
about civil procedure you know that

852
00:52:10,799 --> 00:52:14,040
there is a book called williston rules
on court forms

853
00:52:14,004 --> 00:52:17,333
and watertight civil procedure at

854
00:52:17,369 --> 00:52:20,466
but the killer part mission Kors after
this compromise 1957

855
00:52:21,339 --> 00:52:24,510
compromise was we have a 30 University

856
00:52:24,051 --> 00:52:28,850
lol be program est

857
00:52:29,309 --> 00:52:32,500
a detail did you know and

858
00:52:32,005 --> 00:52:35,804
that's followed by the one-year
articling and

859
00:52:36,299 --> 00:52:39,390
and then they had a six-month partition
course at that park mission course

860
00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:39,047
watertight

861
00:52:40,019 --> 00:52:44,067
Civil Procedure the rules in Williston
roles

862
00:52:44,067 --> 00:52:47,118
was wrong roles and they were The Odd
Couple

863
00:52:48,018 --> 00:52:51,104
little if any of you know that you'll
sign and play the odd couple but

864
00:52:52,004 --> 00:52:56,763
gamer television program many years ago

865
00:52:56,799 --> 00:52:58,850
in in that the play we have the sloppy

866
00:52:59,309 --> 00:53:03,480
a person and and the fastidious person
with that was

867
00:53:03,048 --> 00:53:07,657
Walter and roll/rolls ron was
exceptionally well organized spoke with

868
00:53:08,089 --> 00:53:09,220
great precision

869
00:53:09,022 --> 00:53:12,121
great attention to proper grammar
enunciation

870
00:53:12,319 --> 00:53:17,170
Chester pick a plea and Walter was
sloppy

871
00:53:17,017 --> 00:53:21,656
not in thinking but in dress but they
got along very well together they work

872
00:53:21,809 --> 00:53:22,440
very well

873
00:53:22,044 --> 00:53:26,393
up but they were different and one other
way and that is Walter was a

874
00:53:26,789 --> 00:53:27,797
heterosexual he loved women

875
00:53:28,589 --> 00:53:32,637
much to problems that he created the end
up marrying for them

876
00:53:33,069 --> 00:53:37,740
a butter and Ron roles was gay

877
00:53:37,074 --> 00:53:40,113
at a time when the in gay was not
accepted

878
00:53:40,779 --> 00:53:43,970
but want to do that ron was

879
00:53:43,097 --> 00:53:46,426
was gay and she welcomed him as he did

880
00:53:47,299 --> 00:53:50,397
a with the with others what it was a
very

881
00:53:51,279 --> 00:53:54,354
open present much more inclusive

882
00:53:55,029 --> 00:53:59,127
that's why i say more modern then the
than many before him

883
00:54:00,009 --> 00:54:03,093
and it may be in part because while to
had an unusual background

884
00:54:03,849 --> 00:54:07,140
is born in China his father

885
00:54:07,014 --> 00:54:10,099
was an Anglican missionary his mother
was Jewish a

886
00:54:10,099 --> 00:54:13,468
he became an iconoclast he loves
fighting

887
00:54:14,359 --> 00:54:17,401
a on behalf of the underdog and a

888
00:54:17,779 --> 00:54:22,210
and the him it's actually a good at it
if it wasn't for the fact that he was

889
00:54:22,021 --> 00:54:23,140
also a drunkard

890
00:54:23,329 --> 00:54:28,440
he would have had an even more prelude
career anywhere fast the man very

891
00:54:28,044 --> 00:54:29,363
interesting now

892
00:54:29,759 --> 00:54:32,842
the D mention this but I would encourage
you

893
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:36,666
if you wanna learn more about this those
you had fallen asleep during this

894
00:54:37,359 --> 00:54:38,220
presentation

895
00:54:38,022 --> 00:54:43,063
the fiercest debate I'll I think evan is
my therapy it was the book I wrote

896
00:54:43,063 --> 00:54:47,114
to feel good about the in-law a the
history of legal education

897
00:54:48,014 --> 00:54:53,045
and the latest book lawyers families and
businesses which is about the baskets

898
00:54:53,045 --> 00:54:54,114
for but it's more

899
00:54:54,519 --> 00:54:57,572
about tomatoes society and the practice
of law

900
00:54:58,049 --> 00:55:01,670
over century and a half and how it
changed

901
00:55:01,067 --> 00:55:05,072
it focuses obviously and fastens but it
doesn't it's not a narrow focus I try to

902
00:55:06,017 --> 00:55:09,017
tell a broader story leeway

903
00:55:09,017 --> 00:55:16,017
so open for questions

904
00:55:22,095 --> 00:55:27,106
so here for some widgets a.m. for those
who joined us in October

905
00:55:28,006 --> 00:55:33,013
on October 7th as you'll have read in
the introductory section and heard a

906
00:55:33,013 --> 00:55:33,112
little bit

907
00:55:34,012 --> 00:55:37,018
when the story every Eve was being told
I

908
00:55:37,072 --> 00:55:41,075
in 1889 there was a an initial inaugural
address to this

909
00:55:42,002 --> 00:55:45,039
fourth attempt at getting a law school
at Osgoode

910
00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:48,045
firmly established this one took in so
we take that date

911
00:55:48,099 --> 00:55:51,121
October 7th 1889 as really the

912
00:55:52,021 --> 00:55:55,092
the birth point this law school and so

913
00:55:55,092 --> 00:55:59,109
in now October of 2014 on the 7th

914
00:56:00,009 --> 00:56:03,073
I read some passages from that inaugural
address by Reeve

915
00:56:03,073 --> 00:56:06,169
we marked the 125th and we've been doing
and

916
00:56:07,069 --> 00:56:10,124
a series of events over the academic
year to

917
00:56:11,024 --> 00:56:15,058
take note outside the milestone but of
course it was a completely disembodied

918
00:56:15,058 --> 00:56:19,065
reference who is this reef where did he
come from where were his ideas formed

919
00:56:20,028 --> 00:56:24,028
and I think it is an amazing to connect
some other dots

920
00:56:24,028 --> 00:56:28,089
health the times that shaped some the
individuals in the individuals that

921
00:56:28,089 --> 00:56:28,146
shaped

922
00:56:29,046 --> 00:56:32,085
at some other times and it is a story of
that

923
00:56:32,085 --> 00:56:36,173
push in polls including somebody
outsiders who either studied outside

924
00:56:37,073 --> 00:56:41,142
grew up outside the community coming in
typically more

925
00:56:42,042 --> 00:56:45,059
as the reformers I and this ongoing

926
00:56:45,059 --> 00:56:49,141
push back from an establishment that
quite liked the position of privilege

927
00:56:50,041 --> 00:56:51,052
and power that

928
00:56:51,052 --> 00:56:54,118
it enjoyed in fact these are themes
everyone I've which

929
00:56:55,018 --> 00:56:58,030
in stashed on that we wrestle with today

930
00:56:58,003 --> 00:57:01,016
whether the themes over form practice

931
00:57:01,043 --> 00:57:04,062
verses academic at training in law

932
00:57:04,062 --> 00:57:07,131
as some other the back stories I'll
outsiders

933
00:57:08,031 --> 00:57:13,052
insiders my knee and have privilege and
power shaping

934
00:57:13,052 --> 00:57:17,094
regulatory aspects of the profession and
the story of

935
00:57:17,094 --> 00:57:20,103
who gets access to education and so
forth so

936
00:57:21,003 --> 00:57:24,004
a great history to tell an important one

937
00:57:24,013 --> 00:57:27,080
but with residence I think for very much
the debates

938
00:57:27,008 --> 00:57:28,527
that we're going through

939
00:57:29,319 --> 00:57:33,190
at today's so I we're gonna up course
continue talking

940
00:57:33,019 --> 00:57:36,024
and in the sections but any at top of
mind

941
00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:40,998
question clarification we would welcome
now Indiana let you

942
00:57:41,619 --> 00:57:48,619
take on one or two before we have to
break

943
00:57:51,599 --> 00:57:54,623
this a purses indicating that you should
have a microphone

944
00:57:54,839 --> 00:57:58,130
your

945
00:57:58,013 --> 00:58:04,047
her and

946
00:58:04,047 --> 00:58:07,143
sorry to start again a basically I
really like the

947
00:58:08,043 --> 00:58:11,212
I mean I'm from the state so I'm
actually not used to the idea

948
00:58:11,599 --> 00:58:15,000
articling it's something that's been
growing on me and doing the reading and

949
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,849
seeing how its really transition from

950
00:58:16,849 --> 00:58:20,450
a practical setting to an educational
setting is interesting on the one hand

951
00:58:20,045 --> 00:58:22,118
on the other hand I don't know when we
made the jump from going

952
00:58:23,018 --> 00:58:26,099
22 years the right for two years I cling
to when you're right a clean cuz it

953
00:58:26,099 --> 00:58:27,438
seems like it's really

954
00:58:28,329 --> 00:58:31,910
really important part of practice now
it's interesting

955
00:58:31,091 --> 00:58:34,770
you say the coast I had that feeling
when I myself graduated

956
00:58:35,589 --> 00:58:40,210
November having a PhD in them a law
degree at the University for thirteen

957
00:58:40,021 --> 00:58:40,065
years

958
00:58:40,065 --> 00:58:44,068
and when I started to practice I didn't
know

959
00:58:44,068 --> 00:58:47,247
anything about the practical aspect

960
00:58:47,859 --> 00:58:51,906
and article was I thought exceptionally
important in terms of helping ground you

961
00:58:52,329 --> 00:58:52,405
and give you that

962
00:58:53,089 --> 00:58:56,290
its roots but its it was the concert
debate but

963
00:58:56,029 --> 00:59:00,030
but as he's right said I don't train
lawyers for the first six months to the

964
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:00,045
practice

965
00:59:00,099 --> 00:59:03,428
I train them for their career and and so

966
00:59:04,319 --> 00:59:07,380
you're going to learn those practical
things whether you learn them

967
00:59:07,038 --> 00:59:10,077
you know in our weekly or as you start
your practice and you're gonna probably

968
00:59:10,077 --> 00:59:12,146
make some mistakes and learn the hard
way as

969
00:59:12,839 --> 00:59:16,760
education Hill experience is a tough
teacher type

970
00:59:16,076 --> 00:59:19,122
but but agree you need both

971
00:59:20,022 --> 00:59:23,068
you need unit so that practical training
i've certainly in one that believes that

972
00:59:23,068 --> 00:59:24,116
we should meet a an articling

973
00:59:25,016 --> 00:59:28,925
I think critically is a very important
 aspect in my practice I member

974
00:59:29,069 --> 00:59:32,990
a in my 34th year I was down in New York 
working on a deal

975
00:59:32,099 --> 00:59:35,193
and there was a its summit Justin called 
to the bar in the States

976
00:59:36,093 --> 00:59:39,116
who had no practical training and

977
00:59:40,016 --> 00:59:43,215
very smart person but knew nothing you 
boat

978
00:59:43,359 --> 00:59:46,434
what actually do and I whisked United
 this is personal the other side the

979
00:59:47,109 --> 00:59:48,206
transaction is happening guide them
 through three

980
00:59:49,079 --> 00:59:51,260
you should be doing this between the hat

981
00:59:51,026 --> 00:59:55,060
you know SEL I really do think that articling does serve a practical purpose

982
00:59:55,006 --> 01:00:02,006
we will maybe we'll let do this cuz
 looking at the time I know we're gonna

983
01:00:03,023 --> 01:00:05,090
have to break in a moment but there's
 one question that's been

984
01:00:05,009 --> 01:00:09,036
at nagging at me as I been at listening 
to

985
01:00:10,017 --> 01:00:13,083
to Ian and it says even more I think 
apparent in

986
01:00:13,083 --> 01:00:16,145
reading the excellent day histories that

987
01:00:17,045 --> 01:00:20,128
which are really just great stories in 
addition to covering important material

988
01:00:21,028 --> 01:00:21,072
force

989
01:00:21,072 --> 01:00:24,137
but the question that's been nagging at
 me maybe I'll finish with this money in

990
01:00:25,037 --> 01:00:25,102
for you

991
01:00:26,002 --> 01:00:30,038
is are you telling this story I love how
 change happens

992
01:00:30,038 --> 01:00:33,062
how education and the practice

993
01:00:33,062 --> 01:00:36,149
open up become more inclusive become
 more progressive

994
01:00:37,049 --> 01:00:40,146
become more aware a public interest less 
have just the

995
01:00:41,046 --> 01:00:46,047
private am calculations or is it really
 the opposite the story

996
01:00:46,047 --> 01:00:49,062
have the resilience I love a very

997
01:00:49,062 --> 01:00:54,110
insular community against all the forces
 of change in remember in these years

998
01:00:55,001 --> 01:00:56,039
that we're talking about

999
01:00:56,048 --> 01:00:59,143
1889 osgood dad being dominated by the
 profession

1000
01:01:00,043 --> 01:01:03,131
there are certainly other parts of the
 country where law schools were governed

1001
01:01:04,031 --> 01:01:08,066
by their losses ID's but also doubt
housing which had been university-based

1002
01:01:08,066 --> 01:01:12,079
throughout this entire period in you 
heard the reference to Sydney Smith

1003
01:01:12,079 --> 01:01:17,083
where Willis I went off so it's not like 
it was only an American idea or ideal

1004
01:01:17,083 --> 01:01:20,097
so is is your story the story have

1005
01:01:20,097 --> 01:01:23,105
reform and changes at the story I love

1006
01:01:24,077 --> 01:01:27,103
conservatism and resistance to change

1007
01:01:28,003 --> 01:01:31,097
and I think that also his attention
 we're continuing to explore in the

1008
01:01:31,097 --> 01:01:31,153
current

1009
01:01:32,053 --> 01:01:35,141
debates in you followed the current 
debates as well as explore the history

1010
01:01:36,041 --> 01:01:37,122
so I'd be curious on your

1011
01:01:38,022 --> 01:01:41,065
parting thought on that front up well

1012
01:01:41,065 --> 01:01:43,158
I mean I think in a sense it's it's the
 story of both

1013
01:01:44,058 --> 01:01:47,136
a I think it's the story of how

1014
01:01:48,036 --> 01:01:53,074
changes happen and how you overcome

1015
01:01:53,074 --> 01:01:56,156
a reluctance and you know the

1016
01:01:57,056 --> 01:02:00,083
the conservatism up the profession

1017
01:02:00,083 --> 01:02:03,156
a to my mind you know if you look at the
 two people

1018
01:02:04,056 --> 01:02:07,058
sees a right and and Sydney Smith
 they're both become

1019
01:02:07,058 --> 01:02:10,119
the important aspect to the so we'll 
focus our attention on

1020
01:02:11,019 --> 01:02:14,067
on Cesar naturally mean he he attracted 
the attention

1021
01:02:14,067 --> 01:02:18,116
but sees it was a surprising who believe 
that the way to change people was the

1022
01:02:19,016 --> 01:02:20,051
hit them over the head

1023
01:02:20,051 --> 01:02:24,099
constantly with what he saw as that the 
truth the principles

1024
01:02:24,099 --> 01:02:27,107
on or not and what he did was create

1025
01:02:28,007 --> 01:02:31,011
a real backlash against him Sydney Smith

1026
01:02:31,047 --> 01:02:34,070
is the one who ended up engineering

1027
01:02:34,007 --> 01:02:37,039
change because city Smith knew how to 
compromise

1028
01:02:38,002 --> 01:02:41,043
he knew how he was the politician you 
know how I'll

1029
01:02:41,043 --> 01:02:47,044
to address people's concerns rather than 
say oh you must change up my choice

1030
01:02:47,044 --> 01:02:51,049
saying well you know there is some merit 
to what caesar's saying

1031
01:02:51,094 --> 01:02:54,115
but we don't have to go the whole way 
you know we can do this we can do that

1032
01:02:55,015 --> 01:02:55,052
began

1033
01:02:55,052 --> 01:02:59,061
and she's the one who brought about 
change and i think thats

1034
01:02:59,061 --> 01:03:02,119
to my mind to hear the story is really
 Sydney Smith a

1035
01:03:03,019 --> 01:03:06,076
not and there are others who came in as 
well to help

1036
01:03:06,076 --> 01:03:09,162
him but butter that there's a wonderful 
letter

1037
01:03:10,062 --> 01:03:13,127
that I can because I was doing the study 
it or

1038
01:03:14,027 --> 01:03:18,059
you know with somebody saying %um the
benches have agreed

1039
01:03:18,059 --> 01:03:24,093
to meet but on only one condition that
sees a right not attend the meeting and

1040
01:03:24,093 --> 01:03:27,179
and Sydney Smith brought on the bottom 
to his secretary

1041
01:03:28,079 --> 01:03:31,138
I wanna be the one who tell Cesar this
it's gotta be

1042
01:03:32,038 --> 01:03:36,124
positioned in a way that he will accept 
and that's that was the genius at Sydney

1043
01:03:37,024 --> 01:03:37,077
Smith

1044
01:03:37,077 --> 01:03:41,086
he do this is waiting to be had with us 
but he said I can get him to accept this

1045
01:03:41,086 --> 01:03:44,121
and he did and the they did eventually
bring about change

1046
01:03:45,021 --> 01:03:50,054
so I think it's a story of how change 
happens

1047
01:03:50,054 --> 01:03:54,106
well as a someone who's had the 
experience a teaching in Sydney Smith

1048
01:03:55,006 --> 01:03:59,033
all I can confirm it is a sad testament
to a great day personality

1049
01:03:59,033 --> 01:04:03,034
the architecture could use the kind of
sprucing up

1050
01:04:03,034 --> 01:04:08,075
that this a great law school a sad that
you have tea is getting and the story of

1051
01:04:08,075 --> 01:04:09,123
the relationship between

1052
01:04:10,023 --> 01:04:14,032
at the trial until school's legal
education in Ontario and the profession

1053
01:04:14,032 --> 01:04:17,118
is one that we're grateful for Ian

1054
01:04:18,018 --> 01:04:21,043
to get us started in discussing will
continue

1055
01:04:21,043 --> 01:04:25,105
throughout this course I hope throat at
this year for flexion time where we've

1056
01:04:26,005 --> 01:04:27,060
come from and where we're heading

1057
01:04:27,006 --> 01:04:30,101
on this are 120 fit so as we at

1058
01:04:31,055 --> 01:04:34,059
part now and I have a break as we make
our way to

1059
01:04:34,095 --> 01:04:37,119
at the sections in you should have the
 rooms in the schedules

1060
01:04:38,019 --> 01:04:40,063
please join me one last time in thanking 
the entire